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  1. #521
    EUrJokingMeRight EUrJokingMeRight is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Shanahan View Post
    well land and buildings will always be needed by people. The same can't be said of these invisible bitcoins which are basically some programmers key strokes on a computer.
    As is the balance in your online banking but you are fine with that.

    Cognitive dissonance?!

    Or are you of the mind that only the state has the authority to ascribe value to any means of exchange between people?

    It's an ideal tool for any state to gain control of the money supply so I dont see why a few governments are against it.
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  2. #522
    Trainwreck Trainwreck is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by EUrJokingMeRight View Post
    Hardly.

    What do you base your opinions on? I'm interested.

    So you equate BTC to tulips, fair enough.

    If you think this is a bubble now, you 'aint seen nothing yet'.

    Economic cycles are a given and almost guaranteed phenomenon. Ditto property, but the long term trend is up. Same amount of land, increased population, the need for more houses...makes sense at a basic level. The boom bust nature of economic cycles make clever property purchasing a relatively simple matter in theory but easier said than done....you just need patience and access to cash/credit.

    Same with bitcoin...there is only so much bitcoin real estate available. If you dont want it, somebody else will want it. If you also want it then the highest bidder gets it.

    All 'bubbles' work in the same way. demand outstrips supply.

    Pretty simple.
    No, excess demand increases price. The natural economic response is that supply expands, then demand is met once again.


    If you wanted to make yourself a lot of money, you convince a group of people to buy something that you control the supply of, or which has limited price elasticity of supply (little or no increase in output in response to price increase) and to keep buying it (or alternatively find a way to grow the number of people buying it).

    You get yourself a chunk of supply at the start and then let rip. If successful, you simply inflate the value of you holding - and sell out before it collapses.

    Bitcoin has no function, no use and no utility and fixed (price inelastic) supply. As you state yourself, the only reason to buy it is because you think the price will go up. That's it. And that is the best sign of a bubble for my mind. When the reason to buy something rests solely on the belief the price will increase, you are in a bubble. That happened to Irish property. It was the same case for Dutch Tulips and at certain times, that same belief dominates all others in financial markets.


    But, good luck.
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  3. #523
    Trainwreck Trainwreck is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by EUrJokingMeRight View Post
    As is the balance in your online banking but you are fine with that.

    Cognitive dissonance?!

    Or are you of the mind that only the state has the authority to ascribe value to any means of exchange between people?

    It's an ideal tool for any state to gain control of the money supply so I dont see why a few governments are against it.
    The balance in your bank account is both a unit of account and a means of exchange. It also has a fixed value in legal tender. Bitcoin has none of those things. Bitcoin is no different to owning Pokémon on your phone. I mean that, seriously.
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  4. #524
    Watcher2 Watcher2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by EUrJokingMeRight View Post
    As I stated on this thread, I topped up even more when it hit $3,000. I'm certain many of the moneymen on this thread thought I was nuts.

    That particular 'investment' is up 50%, just saying.

    The number of available bitcoins is finite.
    And fair play to you. I was one of those thinking its a fad. I still do btw, but that's neither here nor there. If you can make a buck (or a few thousand or more) then fair play. Anyone buying from you who subsequently lose their shirts on things like this, I say, well boo hoo buster. Only get into these things with your eyes open and only with what wont hurt too badly if you lose it.

    I'm surprised it has ratcheted up as much as it has. Goes to show there are suckers with cash around. I'm not trying to offend btw, I just still think its all a big fad. There is nothing to the "currency" other than sentiment. Its not even a currency because it is not legal tender. Its accepted as payment by other fanboys but that's about it. Perhaps time will prove me wrong again on it but I have severe doubts.

    Hey, the world is strange. This fits it. I hope, for your sake, you don't stay in too long. No shame in taking a profit any time.
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  5. #525
    Watcher2 Watcher2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by EUrJokingMeRight View Post
    Hardly.

    What do you base your opinions on? I'm interested.

    So you equate BTC to tulips, fair enough.

    If you think this is a bubble now, you 'aint seen nothing yet'.

    Economic cycles are a given and almost guaranteed phenomenon. Ditto property, but the long term trend is up. Same amount of land, increased population, the need for more houses...makes sense at a basic level. The boom bust nature of economic cycles make clever property purchasing a relatively simple matter in theory but easier said than done....you just need patience and access to cash/credit.

    Same with bitcoin...there is only so much bitcoin real estate available. If you dont want it, somebody else will want it. If you also want it then the highest bidder gets it.

    All 'bubbles' work in the same way. demand outstrips supply.

    Pretty simple.
    No one should do that. Tulips are tangible and still around all these hundreds of years after the tulip bubble. That's not how bitcoin will play out. Its not even tangible today.
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  6. #526
    ShinnerBot No.32564844524 ShinnerBot No.32564844524 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Shanahan View Post
    well land and buildings will always be needed by people. The same can't be said of these invisible bitcoins which are basically some programmers key strokes on a computer.
    Land and buildings are backed up by records held in the land registry office....if it weren't for some civil servants key strokes on a computer we'd have no means of knowing who owns what.

    Written records are important and have been a feature of human transactions going back millennia, bitcoins now offer a means of transacting value via records that cannot be hacked, corrupted or broken. Which is why you're going on about "key strokes on a computer", while all the major financial companies are embracing the technology as the next big new thing.

    But in fairness, it's a fair maxim to not invest in things you don't understand. I just find it hilarious in the context of a country where it's leaders state that they want Ireland to be the California of Europe, to be the Silicon Republic, to be the driver of Innovation and Technology in Europe.

    Ain't gonna happen by the looks of it
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  7. #527
    ShinnerBot No.32564844524 ShinnerBot No.32564844524 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trainwreck View Post

    Bitcoin has no function, no use and no utility and fixed (price inelastic) supply.


    But, good luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher2 View Post
    I'm not trying to offend btw, I just still think its all a big fad. There is nothing to the "currency" other than sentiment. Its not even a currency because it is not legal tender. Its accepted as payment by other fanboys but that's about it. Perhaps time will prove me wrong again on it but I have severe doubts.
    Gents, you are seriously missing out on the implications of the technology, you both think there is no utility when the tech itself provides the utility. From the get go, you get a globally instantaneous means of transferring value. Now with Segwit you get even more utility through Smart Contracts, Automated escrow contracts, and cross chain transactions.

    If such a technology were employed across the entirety of the state, we could literally track every last cent in a manner that would make Templemore off-shore accounts impossible.

    We can argue over the price of BTC to all ends, nothing wrong there, and as you say it comes with a tonne of risk investment wise. That's down to the individual. But even if you feel the price is wrong, don't close your eyes to the revolution this tech brings.

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  8. #528
    Watcher2 Watcher2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinnerBot No.32564844524 View Post
    Gents, you are seriously missing out on the implications of the technology, you both think there is no utility when the tech itself provides the utility. From the get go, you get a globally instantaneous means of transferring value. Now with Segwit you get even more utility through Smart Contracts, Automated escrow contracts, and cross chain transactions.

    If such a technology were employed across the entirety of the state, we could literally track every last cent in a manner that would make Templemore off-shore accounts impossible.

    We can argue over the price of BTC to all ends, nothing wrong there, and as you say it comes with a tonne of risk investment wise. That's down to the individual. But even if you feel the price is wrong, don't close your eyes to the revolution this tech brings.
    But we are told the amount of it is finite, so it would be impossible to adopt it as widely as you are claiming.

    Plus, will my local Tesco accept it as payment for my shopping? Will the ESB, Bord Gais, Vodafone accept it? I'm quite sure my local shop wont for my crisps, wine and diesel.

    So apologies, but I don't believe I am missing any utility.
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  9. #529
    Watcher2 Watcher2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinnerBot No.32564844524 View Post
    Land and buildings are backed up by records held in the land registry office....if it weren't for some civil servants key strokes on a computer we'd have no means of knowing who owns what.

    Written records are important and have been a feature of human transactions going back millennia, bitcoins now offer a means of transacting value via records that cannot be hacked, corrupted or broken. Which is why you're going on about "key strokes on a computer", while all the major financial companies are embracing the technology as the next big new thing.

    But in fairness, it's a fair maxim to not invest in things you don't understand. I just find it hilarious in the context of a country where it's leaders state that they want Ireland to be the California of Europe, to be the Silicon Republic, to be the driver of Innovation and Technology in Europe.

    Ain't gonna happen by the looks of it
    hehe, you are right there. When the term...what was it, smart economy, innovation economy, something like that....was the new slick term that politicians were throwing about at every sound bite opportunity, they were asked what the term meant and none of them could answer in any meaningful way.


    "Knowledge economy" that was the term.
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  10. #530
    ShinnerBot No.32564844524 ShinnerBot No.32564844524 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher2 View Post
    But we are told the amount of it is finite, so it would be impossible to adopt it as widely as you are claiming.

    Plus, will my local Tesco accept it as payment for my shopping? Will the ESB, Bord Gais, Vodafone accept it? I'm quite sure my local shop wont for my crisps, wine and diesel.

    So apologies, but I don't believe I am missing any utility.
    You're failing to separate Bitcoin as a singular example of the technology from the technology itself. In the case of a nation state, you would be talking about a bespoke blockchain for that state to meet its own auditing and budgetary requirements. Imagine the mandarins having to stand over transparent records of state spending! Surely we can dream!

    As regards your second point in terms of acceptability, one of the reasons that won't happen in Ireland is that we don't have a payment processor to turn bitcoin(or any other type of this coin) instantaneously back in to euro(removing all risk to the retailer) whereas in the US this isn't a problem meaning there's not much point in your local shop deciding to use this tech.

    But that's in Ireland...so what! Japan and South Korea have legislated for bitcoin and blockchain tech going forward, and plenty in developing countries are happily using the tech for transfers where western union is too expensive.

    Life goes on outside of Ireland, which is why in particular I'm taking the piss out of this idea that we can be California of Europe...societally we're too conservative to deal with the disruptiveness of technology in general as this thread demonstrates.
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