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  1. #1001
    jmcc jmcc is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hillmanhunter1 View Post
    Where we seem to differ is that you believe that cryptocurrencies are currencies - they are not, they are pseudo currencies.
    Cryptocurrencies are based on cryptography. This makes them somewhat more difficult to counterfeit than ordinary currencies which are, at the person to person level, based on paper and metal. They allow a notional value to be exchanged on a person to person to basis but they can do it globally without the need for third parties. If you wanted to send 100 Euro to someone in Australia, how would you do it with a conventional currency? Now how would you do it if you wanted to send 100 Bitcoins to someone in Australia?

    They are no more money than Green Shield Stamps were:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Shield_Stamps
    I do remember them. Green Shield Stamps weren't a currency. They were a rewards scheme. Nowadays, the data produced by a customer is valuable and it can be used to analyse a customer's shopping patterns and offer them discounts to buy more products.
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  2. #1002
    gleeful gleeful is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcc View Post
    Cryptocurrencies are based on cryptography. This makes them somewhat more difficult to counterfeit than ordinary currencies which are, at the person to person level, based on paper and metal. They allow a notional value to be exchanged on a person to person to basis but they can do it globally without the need for third parties. If you wanted to send 100 Euro to someone in Australia, how would you do it with a conventional currency? Now how would you do it if you wanted to send 100 Bitcoins to someone in Australia?

    I do remember them. Green Shield Stamps weren't a currency. They were a rewards scheme. Nowadays, the data produced by a customer is valuable and it can be used to analyse a customer's shopping patterns and offer them discounts to buy more products.
    To be a currency Bitcoin would need to be a stable means of exchange. Its not stable, and people mostly hoard them. What volume of bitcoin exchange is due to speculation, and what is due to the actual exchange of goods or services? The latter is close to 0%. Bitcoin is just a fad.
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  3. #1003
    jmcc jmcc is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by gleeful View Post
    To be a currency Bitcoin would need to be a stable means of exchange. Its not stable, and people mostly hoard them. What volume of bitcoin exchange is due to speculation, and what is due to the actual exchange of goods or services? The latter is close to 0%. Bitcoin is just a fad.
    How much money have you in your pocket? How much in your bank accounts? Do people hoard "real" currencies?

    What makes you think that it is not stable?
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  4. #1004
    ShinnerBot No.32564844524 ShinnerBot No.32564844524 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by gleeful View Post
    To be a currency Bitcoin would need to be a stable means of exchange. Its not stable, and people mostly hoard them. What volume of bitcoin exchange is due to speculation, and what is due to the actual exchange of goods or services? The latter is close to 0%. Bitcoin is just a fad.
    But it is, there's a key problem you're not seeing which is that as a payment network a transaction can be bought in bitcoin and settled back in to fiat in a matter of seconds before price fluctuation can have an effect. A large part of what has brought us to this point is the fact that it has established itself as a reliable means of exchange for retail business who are operating in the cash economy.

    However, you are right in one thing, the deflationary model and resulting incentive not to spend as well as reducing supply means that bitcoin itself might not be viable over the long term, not even gold is as strictly deflationary. In that case, Bitcoin fails, a more viable alternative rises to the fore. The explosion of other blockchains and companies/governments implementing their own models is testament to this, interesting times ahead.
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  5. #1005
    Hillmanhunter1 Hillmanhunter1 is online now
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    [QUOTE=jmcc;11662756]Cryptocurrencies are based on cryptography. This makes them somewhat more difficult to counterfeit than ordinary currencies which are, at the person to person level, based on paper and metal. They allow a notional value to be exchanged on a person to person to basis but they can do it globally without the need for third parties. If you wanted to send 100 Euro to someone in Australia, how would you do it with a conventional currency? Now how would you do it if you wanted to send 100 Bitcoins to someone in Australia?
    QUOTE]

    I have already today sent money, personally, to Europe and the Middle East. It took 5 minutes on my laptop. I didn't use coins or paper, I used the 1s and 0s that represent the money in my bank account. To access my account I needed a password, 3 digits from a 10 digit code, and a 6 digit number from a random number generator on my key ring. I have no need for a crypto/pseudo currency - they do not meet any unfilled need.

    The coins in my pocket are all real - they're not worth counterfeiting.

    I believe that all of the notes in my wallet are real but for arguments sake let's assume they are all counterfeit. The contents of my wallet represents a tiny tiny fraction of my net worth. The risk of counterfeit currency is a pain if the barman refuses to take my 20 euros tonight - but its not a material matter that requires a solution.

    There is another (long) thread that is relevant to this discussion:
    Euro still accepted for my cup of Coffee this morning

    To quote the OP:
    "I couldn't believe it - I was ready to barter my tie in exchange. I assumed surely the retailer was simply behind the news, perhaps he hadn't logged on to P.ie? But no, all over the city people were using Euros - yes actual Euros in exchange for goods and services. It was almost like the Euro was acting as a store of wealth?"
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  6. #1006
    gleeful gleeful is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcc View Post
    How much money have you in your pocket? How much in your bank accounts? Do people hoard "real" currencies?

    What makes you think that it is not stable?
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  7. #1007
    jmcc jmcc is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hillmanhunter1 View Post
    I have already today sent money, personally, to Europe and the Middle East. It took 5 minutes on my laptop. I didn't use coins or paper, I used the 1s and 0s that represent the money in my bank account. To access my account I needed a password, 3 digits from a 10 digit code, and a 6 digit number from a random number generator on my key ring. I have no need for a crypto/pseudo currency - they do not meet any unfilled need.
    The banks, in this case, are the intermediaries. With a cryptocurrency, it is a person to person transaction.

    The coins in my pocket are all real - they're not worth counterfeiting.
    They have physicality but their value is that which you and others ascribe to them.

    I believe that all of the notes in my wallet are real but for arguments sake let's assume they are all counterfeit. The contents of my wallet represents a tiny tiny fraction of my net worth. The risk of counterfeit currency is a pain if the barman refuses to take my 20 euros tonight - but its not a material matter that requires a solution.
    How difficult is it to counterfeit a coin in a cryptocurrency?
    Last edited by jmcc; 30th November 2017 at 03:57 PM.
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  8. #1008
    jmcc jmcc is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by gleeful View Post
    Now post a chart of the major currencies over the same period.
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  9. #1009
    Dame_Enda Dame_Enda is offline
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    Its €7950.88 now, compared to 9550 before the crash a few days ago.
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  10. #1010
    gleeful gleeful is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Enda View Post
    Its €7950.88 now, compared to 9550 before the crash a few days ago.
    Its falling. Down to 9400 USD now.
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