Register to Comment
Page 43 of 46 FirstFirst ... 334142434445 ... LastLast
Results 421 to 430 of 457
Like Tree313Likes
  1. #421
    MayoDub MayoDub is offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    209

    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    The principal is replaced rather than repaid. In 2010 a 31 billion liability was created with the Promissory Notes. This will always be 31 billion but it will change as the Promissory Notes are repaid.

    For example after 10 billion of the PNs have been repaid we will have a 21 billion debt from the PNs and a 10 billion debt from the money used to repay the PNs. The total will still be 31 billion. That will never be repaid. What needs to be slowed down is the rate at which the PNs are repaid with other government borrowings.

    The 3.7% is the average rate on the EU/IMF loans. It is set by those institutions. The EU rate is set at the rates at which the EFSM/EFSM could/can borrow and this is passed on to Ireland. The IMF rate is set relative to some formula.
    Ok - crystal clear on the interest rates now and how they arise.
    Also I can see how the debt is reflected in the GGD (gross government debt balance) as the years go by, etc.

    In your example of 10 billion PNs paid down --- is that said to happen once 10 billion + interest due is paid or just 10bn paid off ?
    In the term structure shown here :
    http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/...issory2010.pdf

    the total amount paid over the 15yr or so term is north of 43 billion.
    That would indicate we are paying 31bn + interest (I am assuming the key interest rate here is the 3.7%)
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  2. #422
    hammer hammer is offline
    hammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    45,185

    Does Taxi Driver still have schedule agreed by Lendahand re repayments and interest. I think the total cost for Anglo / INBS ( what a joke ) was around €60 billion

    Yes, €60billion not €32 billion, €60 billion.

    Anyone find out what BIFFO and Seanie discussed at Druids Heath ?
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  3. #423
    WTTR WTTR is offline
    WTTR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,533

    Quote Originally Posted by MayoDub View Post
    Many thanks for the clarification TD.
    So - is there any grain of truth in a statement that the principal is never repaid (in any scenario open to the Irish govt)?
    Ahhhh! Now we are getting to the nub of the discussion; the bottom line as it were!

    Open! - the truth is that the government has no other option!

    Official Ireland does not want this to get out. All discussions on the airways will have this aura of dressing up, befuddlement! So as to give the insiders time to extricate themselves from the whole sorry mess. Then watch the axe being taken to CS salaries etc. God knows the kind of shenanigans that are going on behind the scene: all a result of visionless people in control. It is a slow moving horror film; now in its thirteen year!
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  4. #424
    gerhard dengler gerhard dengler is offline
    gerhard dengler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    26,357

    Quote Originally Posted by MayoDub View Post

    the total amount paid over the 15yr or so term is north of 43 billion.
    That would indicate we are paying 31bn + interest (I am assuming the key interest rate here is the 3.7%)
    North of 43 billion is approximately 47-48 billion in total.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  5. #425
    MayoDub MayoDub is offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    209

    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard dengler View Post
    North of 43 billion is approximately 47-48 billion in total.
    sounds to me like we are on the hook for interest + principal (or coupon + interest) or whatever the counterparts are in bond-debtspeak

    I realise this isn't new news but I'm wondering why there is quite a bit of obfuscation based on financial engineering/off balance sheet stuff to downplay what the Irish taxpayer is actually being caught for.
    Also I realise that the structural deficit due to imbalances in tax receipts/current spending are a massive component of what is causing austerity here.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  6. #426
    gerhard dengler gerhard dengler is offline
    gerhard dengler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    26,357

    Quote Originally Posted by MayoDub View Post
    sounds to me like we are on the hook for interest + principal (or coupon + interest) or whatever the counterparts are in bond-debtspeak

    I realise this isn't new news but I'm wondering why there is quite a bit of obfuscation based on financial engineering/off balance sheet stuff to downplay what the Irish taxpayer is actually being caught for.
    Also I realise that the structural deficit due to imbalances in tax receipts/current spending are a massive component of what is causing austerity here.
    Anglo/IRBC is €31 billion in capital repayment with €17 billion in interest charges repayments = €48 billion.
    This accounts for repayments 2011-2025.

    There is speculation that the actual costs of Anglo/IRBC 2026-2031 might well push the final costs to €52 billion
    It's actually discussed at this link (hat tip to Namawinlake)
    Minister Noonan again confirms gross cost of IBRC bailout at
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  7. #427
    MayoDub MayoDub is offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    209

    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard dengler View Post
    Anglo/IRBC is 31 billion in capital repayment with 17 billion in interest charges repayments = 48 billion.
    This accounts for repayments 2011-2025.

    There is speculation that the actual costs of Anglo/IRBC 2026-2031 might well push the final costs to 52 billion
    It's actually discussed at this link (hat tip to Namawinlake)
    Minister Noonan again confirms gross cost of IBRC bailout at
    Good link Dengler.

    The reality of 2011-2025 (under current plan of record + any adjustments due to potential losses at IBRC) seem spot on.
    I'm not sure whether I was listening to Alice in Wonderlandonomics this morning.
    Maybe it was smoke and daggers but the distinct impression I got from the economics prof (architect/advisor of the IBRC PNs??) was that the capital/principal made little odds to the repayment schedule and that the interest rate was dirt cheap and likely to get better on account of the ECB key interest rate forecast.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  8. #428
    clearmurk clearmurk is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    1,201

    Quote Originally Posted by MayoDub View Post
    Good link Dengler.

    The reality of 2011-2025 (under current plan of record + any adjustments due to potential losses at IBRC) seem spot on.
    I'm not sure whether I was listening to Alice in Wonderlandonomics this morning.
    Maybe it was smoke and daggers but the distinct impression I got from the economics prof (architect/advisor of the IBRC PNs??) was that the capital/principal made little odds to the repayment schedule and that the interest rate was dirt cheap and likely to get better on account of the ECB key interest rate forecast.
    I'd also like to know people's views on the assertion that National Debt never gets paid down. Did Ireland Inc. not do exactly this during the boom years?

    To suggest that National Debt is never ending seems a bit like saying that a credit card never gets paid off. This might work, but is depending on inflation to erode the debt value, and adequate economic growth to fund the interest payments?
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  9. #429
    gerhard dengler gerhard dengler is offline
    gerhard dengler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    26,357

    Quote Originally Posted by MayoDub View Post
    Good link Dengler.

    The reality of 2011-2025 (under current plan of record + any adjustments due to potential losses at IBRC) seem spot on.
    I'm not sure whether I was listening to Alice in Wonderlandonomics this morning.
    Maybe it was smoke and daggers but the distinct impression I got from the economics prof (architect/advisor of the IBRC PNs??) was that the capital/principal made little odds to the repayment schedule and that the interest rate was dirt cheap and likely to get better on account of the ECB key interest rate forecast.
    If Noonan is telling the Dail that the Anglo/IBRC promissory note mechanism is going to cost €48 billion, I think that reasonable to take what Noonan says at face value.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  10. #430
    MayoDub MayoDub is offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    209

    Quote Originally Posted by clearmurk View Post
    I'd also like to know people's views on the assertion that National Debt never gets paid down. Did Ireland Inc. not do exactly this during the boom years?

    To suggest that National Debt is never ending seems a bit like saying that a credit card never gets paid off. This might work, but is depending on inflation to erode the debt value, and adequate economic growth to fund the interest payments?
    Yes - stag-{de}-flation won't cut it .. totally unsustainable.

    Regarding the Promissory Note element .. it seems to me that the repayment schedule includes both principal/capital + interest and any idea that the 31bn capital component can just accumulate into some never-never accumulating wodge of debt to be inherited by our children/grandchildren seems obscene.

    I guess by restructuring the PNs into a 40 year term ... the interest payments get spread over a much longer period of time ... much like the Treaty of Versailles for WWI Germany.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

Page 43 of 46 FirstFirst ... 334142434445 ... LastLast
Sign in to CommentRegister to Comment