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  1. #111
    SideysGhost SideysGhost is offline

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    Epic post there Pleb.
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  2. #112
    iball123 iball123 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutron View Post
    Everyone pays tax.

    When you go to the shops you pay tax.
    When you use your Electric you pay tax.
    Motor Tax
    household Tax
    Fuel Tax
    Value Added Tax
    Carbon Tax

    We all pay tax.
    True but how much of that money do they actually earn themselves they are taking a welfare payment which is coming out of the private sector tax payers back pocket. This along with exports and MMCs are our only source of income (not counting our loans from Europe as they will have to be paid back), Everything else the stealth taxes, PS taxes (both direct and indirect) and welfare indirect taxes is just a recycling of this money. The penny needs to drop if they keep pummeling 1 of the 3 sources of income to the state we are going to lose more people to emigration and the private sector is this country is never going to recover.
    Last edited by iball123; 26th September 2012 at 03:27 PM.
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  3. #113
    iball123 iball123 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pleb View Post
    I was speaking to a friend recently and he said that basically we are like a lot of very hungry dogs. When we are thrown a few scraps of meat we tear each other apart and fight about who gets what. In the meantime the scrap throwers are making off with the carcass.

    I was on the dole in the past. I certainly didn't think it was easy street. At the time it was a safety net - and I was damn glad of it, but it was no feather bed. When I see threads about single mothers discussed as if its a career decision thing for them I cringe. I've yet to meet a single mother driving a merc. or who shops in Brown Thomas. It's a tough road, and they live on a very very tight budget. If they are living it up then they are up to something that's either illegal or fraudulent. They are not doing it on the subsistence provided through welfare.

    Yes - we live in a welfare state, and I would argue that there are very few, if any of P.ie members who do not benefit or have not benefited in some way. If you got a grant when you went to college, put your children through public education, collected children's allowance, claimed interest tax relief on your mortgage, got a first time buyers grant, get tax relief on your pension contributions, etc. etc. The list goes on and on, and we are going nowhere by watching each other and arguing that this person or that person got more, and blah blah blah ... we will stay here posting threads about each other without changing anything in reality.

    Yes - we are a welfare state - but the biggest payout in this welfare state goes to a minority of people many of whom are already very well off. Some of them don't even live here, and very few if any contribute anything of value. These are the meat throwers.

    The global trend is that the wealthy are getting wealthier while the poor are getting poorer. In Ireland it's no different. I can't remember which Sunday Newspaper - I think it was the Irish Times - reported several months back or last year (I'm sure some of you can provide the date) that in terms of tax - those who are significantly wealthier did not experience a proportionate increase in their tax when compared with the rest of us.

    We live in an economic system where the system output is geared towards maximising profit. This profit is goes to the few and the trickle down goes to the rest of us. The trend is that more is going to the few and less to the rest. I personally believe that an economic system should be geared to improving the lot of society as a whole rather than a few. Unfortunately - not only is the economic system geared toward profit for the few - it is supported by the political system. The notion that politicians represent people is a little bit naive in my view. We live in an economic system whereby people are merely commodities.

    We have now reached a point where not only is the economic/political system geared toward profit for a few - but the taxes and levies paid by the citizenry for the development and improvement of society, (including a safety net for those who fall on hard times) is legally siphoned off into the pockets of the wealthy.

    We are told that if we don't support this system then our economy will collapse, and that may indeed be true. But what sort of a system is it - that sovereign nations can be held to ransom and live under such threat. It's not the sort of system I want, and certainly not what I vote for.

    I hear arguments about whether or not we should be paying off bondholders, and from what I am seeing - the only real reason we are paying them is because of the threat hanging over us. The same goes for bailing out banks. Their bailing out happened overnight, but a few years on and many of our fellow citizens who are struggling to keep a roof over their heads have yet to be helped, never mind about bailed out.

    The notion that my child has a significant debt hanging over him before he ever starts working because some have managed to twist society into accepting such a system is morally disgusting by any standards whether legal or not. The notion that anyone should have to pay the debts of another is morally wrong whether legal or not. The idea that a child born in a third world country should be born into debt and live a life of dire poverty and starvation, to pay back monies that were loaned to nations (usually despots) and whose people are now held to ransom is utterly disgusting and immoral whether legal or not.

    We talk about middle class, and working class, the jobless, the unions, the pensioners, the public service, the PAYE worker, and all these other sub divisions in our society - and we talk about where the axe should fall next, who should and shouldn't get chopped.
    The fact is that those who control the system don't give a damn about which sector it feeds itself on.

    No its not the unemployed who need to take to the streets, nor the public sector, nor the unions, nor the pensioners - or even if taking to the streets is the best way to go.
    If we wish for a society where the economic and political systems have that society at its heart then we have no choice - we must make a stand - together - and refuse to be divided by the petty squabbles that our politicians thrive on.

    I'm neither communist, capitalist, socialist, nor any other 'ist. I like to see people rewarded for their contributions whether that's economic or to society, and I also want to ensure that we help those who need it.

    The system as it exists is eating into our the heart of who we are, and it must be stopped. We need change and our politicians won't deliver it. We need to take responsibility and act together to take back what is rightfully ours. Our political and economic system. All it takes is a tipping point - and that may happen anyway, but in an uncontrolled manner, with god only knows what consequences.

    No, we will never all agree on everything - but unified and organized we may have a chance to give our children a chance.
    Nice speech except we were railroaded into paying bondholders and bailing out the banks because we were borrowing money from the troika at a phenomenal rate even without the banking crisis and they said they would turn off the taps..Sure they cant even get a deal now on any bank debt even do it looks like Spain will get one..and why is this..because they see what we pay our public sector and how much we spend on welfare. These 2 spends outstrip what we take in on tax by a country mile... Sure why would you forgive someones debts when you see them paying twice what they should be paying to someone else. They eurocrats are laughing at us... If we could ween ourselves off the current borrowing 55million a day..We could turn around and tell the troika and the banks to fu....c k right off.... but until that day comes we are over a barrel with our jocks around our ankles waiting for Angela Merkal to slap on the strap on.....This is why there is such a dog fight for the scraps you say...Except certain dogs in the fight are dining from the same trough as those who are throwing in the scraps, as long as this status quo continues we are bunched
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  4. #114
    TODevastated TODevastated is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by iball123 View Post
    Nice speech except we were railroaded into paying bondholders and bailing out the banks because we were borrowing money from the troika at a phenomenal rate even without the banking crisis and they said they would turn off the taps..Sure they cant even get a deal now on any bank debt even do it looks like Spain will get one..and why is this..because they see what we pay our public sector and how much we spend on welfare. These 2 spends outstrip what we take in on tax by a country mile... Sure why would you forgive someones debts when you see them paying twice what they should be paying to someone else. They eurocrats are laughing at us... If we could ween ourselves off the current borrowing 55million a day..We could turn around and tell the troika and the banks to fu....c k right off.... but until that day comes we are over a barrel with our jocks around our ankles waiting for Angela Merkal to slap on the strap on.....This is why there is such a dog fight for the scraps you say...Except certain dogs in the fight are dining from the same trough as those who are throwing in the scraps, as long as this status quo continues we are bunched
    +1

    its as simple as that we can't expect others to take a hit on what we owe them when at the same time we continue to borrow off them to
    (i) pay ourselves more,
    (ii) give ourselves more in welfare
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  5. #115
    The Pleb The Pleb is offline

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    LOL iball. Do I detect a note of cynicism at my attempt to express myself? Nice speech indeed.

    Though I could split hairs and argue some of what you say, your points are well taken and I consider that most of what you say is ultimately correct, and I accept that all my blah won't come to much unless I can make something more of it.

    I guess that ultimately what I am saying is that our economic system is flawed, corrupt, and morally wrong - and I am suggesting that all the bitch fighting that goes on in some of these threads (I'm not saying yours) does not progress us one iota.

    I do believe that if we are to change anything we will need to unite. No, maybe not the whole country but enough to collectively find some alternative to Angela's strap on.

    I've got to go now so I'll elaborate tomorrow, but in the meantime I'd prefer to keep my sphincter tightly shut because if we meekly decide to relax these muscles, I figure they'll be lining up behind her to keep on shafting us all like good-o for a long time to come.
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  6. #116
    iball123 iball123 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pleb View Post
    LOL iball. Do I detect a note of cynicism at my attempt to express myself? Nice speech indeed.

    Though I could split hairs and argue some of what you say, your points are well taken and I consider that most of what you say is ultimately correct, and I accept that all my blah won't come to much unless I can make something more of it.

    I guess that ultimately what I am saying is that our economic system is flawed, corrupt, and morally wrong - and I am suggesting that all the bitch fighting that goes on in some of these threads (I'm not saying yours) does not progress us one iota.

    I do believe that if we are to change anything we will need to unite. No, maybe not the whole country but enough to collectively find some alternative to Angela's strap on.

    I've got to go now so I'll elaborate tomorrow, but in the meantime I'd prefer to keep my sphincter tightly shut because if we meekly decide to relax these muscles, I figure they'll be lining up behind her to keep on shafting us all like good-o for a long time to come.
    I Was not trying to be Cynical I think your argument was well rounded but flawed. The problem with all the bitches fighting is that usually the bitch that screams the most gets heard..Ala the pensioner protest. This country will never unite. We have 3 very different sectors now in this country the unemployed, private and public sector workers...Now you may be right that the gov want us this way that we are tearing at each others throats.. But I will say it one more time those in the middle class are being hoodwinked by the lefties and the righties..The right wing have the financial clout behind them and the lefties have the unions and the labour party watching there back..Who is looking after the bog standard brickie, IT consultant, Creche care worker, Shop assistant, Labourer ...the list goes on and on ...Yet they are the ones who are suffering the most... You may say those on the dole are but no one indigenous citizen to my knowledge if they choose will not be homeless in this country or will they go hungry. The system should be fairer. Why should people who cant afford kids have to pay out more taxes for some 17 y.o girl who cant keep her legs together to have a child..Or why should I pay for Bill the unemployed lad to go to the doctor when I cant afford it...Or Jimmy the bondholder why should he get paid even do he bet on the wrong horse in Anglo and I cant put any money away for a rainy day..Or hows about bill the passport office employee who does fu..ck all , all day and needs a hearing test as there seems to be a phone ringing in his ear all the time..but doesn't bother to pick it up..Why should I pay increments and other ridiculous allowances to this type of person... I do recognise that there are girls who have got pregnant through no fault of their own, I do recognise that there are people on the dole who want to work and are there due to hte economic climate we find ourselves in and I do recognise that there are ps workers who work damn hard for a living. Having said that so do I and yet I will be expected to pay more in taxes come december and will get less services for these taxes. Why should any one be exempt from this downturn. But in the situations above why hasnt measures been brought in to identify that people who are taking the pi$$ from those who are genuine..A number of things just off the top of my head would be.

    Change public sector contracts to a 3 strike rule as in 2 verbal and 1 written warning and then your gone..and make it a lot more strict as in if Billy the nurse decides to pull a sickie with no doctor note..Ok he may have a genuine reason but if he does twice within say a year..He should get a verbal warning..This will cut out the sickie culture thats rampant in areas of the public sector. Also if Billy is doing this he to me seems to be a dosser and he is closer to being fu..cked out without a golden handshake than before.

    Welfare should be computerised...the use of a credit card system should be used. The gov if they struck a deal with aldi/lidl say if all food/other items bought in there could be delivered to the dolees house the state could ask for a 20% discount.. Also certain items such as alcohol, cigarettes, computer related items and other luxury goods should not be allowed bought with this. Same goes with the childrens allowance..The items bought with this should only be for the child and a similar format could be used.

    Force people on welfare to do at least 2 days a week on community projects such as cleaning the streets, graffiti off walls etc. And the other 3 days they should be made look for work.

    All children birth certs must have the fathers name on the birth cert...If not then childrens allowance should be cut in half....This will stop a lot of girls thinking sure the state will look after me.

    Give a tax credit for workers where both parents are working and are using a creche..This is unreal that the government have not done this...If you have 2 kids it costs nearly 1700 Euros .. So what happens is one of the couple decide its not worth their while going into work when you factor in the costs of work.

    People should be allowed take out their pension contributions now...If they are using it to write down debt..alla credit cards or mortgage..Let them have the full amount..If they are not tax it at 40%..It will bring the debt situation down and give the gov a nice bit of revenue.

    But are these ideas a bit to right of centre..To me they make perfect sense
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  7. #117
    Neutron Neutron is offline

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    Rumoured proposals on Budget 2013...

    FG/LAB PLAN TO HIT THE LESS WELL OFF HARD IN BUDGET 13
    All Irish Citizens facing the wrath of the cuts being made by government need to begin to self advocate, sitting in the armchair giving out will get us nowhere. The cuts coming in budget 13 are harsh and unfair being proposed as we speak are as follows
    €10pw cut in Jobseekers
    €10pw cut In Disability
    €10pw cut in Carers
    €10pw Cut in Old Age Pension
    €10pm cut in Child Allowance

    Pensioners with an income over €36k will lose the house hold package, free travel and full medical card this will be replaced by a doctors visit card; pensioners will have to pay for their own medication.

    The pharmacy charge for medication will increase to €1 per item dispensed.
    Ending free travel for people on disability, carers and old age pension is under discussion at the moment and of course the property tax is expected to be .25% of the value of your home with a flat rate of €250pw for council tenants.

    I emphasise that this is still just rumour...


    This is from the facebook group

    Call for a revolution in Ireland | Facebook
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  8. #118
    hammer hammer is offline
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    Cool

    Dont agree with them all though.
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  9. #119
    Neutron Neutron is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer View Post
    Cool

    Dont agree with them all though.
    My only issue if they are true is that they seem to be simply cuts, for instance pensioners get the same hit and unempoyed and yet the unemployed have had cuts for the past 4 years whilst pensioners havent.

    Why cant they tax child benefit instead of cutting everyone the same?
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  10. #120
    hammer hammer is offline
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    Because FG/Lab supporters have kids to
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