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  1. #101
    Falco Falco is offline

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    Just because wind-power is the flavour of the month ATM does not give its backers carte-blance to get special treatment under planning laws that are meant to protect sensitive landscapes, protected areas/species etc. Wind-power like any other industrial development should be subject to vigourous analysis by planning experts and a robust EIS process. In the UK conservation organisations like the RSPB have produced guidline maps of the country highlighting areas that are deemed sensitive and less sensitive to wind farm developments based on a formula that takes account many of the factors mentioned above. In Scotland a similiar set of planning guidelines is about to be officially adopted so as to guide the industry as to where projects will be allowed planning. A similiar system is badly needed in this country given the rather chaotic approach to granting wind farm applications which also varies widly between County Councils.
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  2. #102
    wombat wombat is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falco View Post
    Wind-power like any other industrial development should be subject to vigourous analysis by planning experts and a robust EIS process.
    It is, including making sure the local seagulls don't fly into the blades.
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  3. #103
    Pat Gill Pat Gill is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    Subsidised projects mostly,not profitable.
    Fundamental error again patslatt, pumped hydro does not attract subsidies of any description, anywhere in the world.
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  4. #104
    patslatt patslatt is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Falco View Post
    Just because wind-power is the flavour of the month ATM does not give its backers carte-blance to get special treatment under planning laws that are meant to protect sensitive landscapes, protected areas/species etc. Wind-power like any other industrial development should be subject to vigourous analysis by planning experts and a robust EIS process. In the UK conservation organisations like the RSPB have produced guidline maps of the country highlighting areas that are deemed sensitive and less sensitive to wind farm developments based on a formula that takes account many of the factors mentioned above. In Scotland a similiar set of planning guidelines is about to be officially adopted so as to guide the industry as to where projects will be allowed planning. A similiar system is badly needed in this country given the rather chaotic approach to granting wind farm applications which also varies widly between County Councils.
    On the latter point,brown envelopes haven't gone away you know.

    For the pitifully small power output,the landscape suitable for towering turbines would be ugly as hell,like an abandoned scarred open pit mine.
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  5. #105
    Cooperate for freedom Cooperate for freedom is offline

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    In answer to the op, no.
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  6. #106
    patslatt patslatt is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Gill View Post
    Fundamental error again patslatt, pumped hydro does not attract subsidies of any description, anywhere in the world.
    How would you know that a pumped hydro project wasn't cross subsidised within a power utility,barring a forensic accounting investigation. You would also need to be familiar with the local languages. So are you a multilingual forensic accountant?
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  7. #107
    Pat Gill Pat Gill is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    I wonder if Iberdola can show a profit without cross subsidisation from the rest of the business.
    Pumped hydro is an integrated part of their business which makes all of its generation from nuclear to wind more economic and useful.

    Every form of energy production depends on storage either as fuel, petrol/diesel/kerosene or the coal/gas for electricity generation, nuclear power has always needed electricity storage for its economics so its no surprise that wind/wave generation will also require storage.

    NREL: Power Technologies Energy Data Book - Wind Farm Area Calculator has a study "Land use requirements for modern wind power plants in the United States" showing in the concluding section widely varying figures:
    -93 projects,14 GW capacity,0.3 plus or minus 0.3 hectares/MW capacity for direct impact including roads
    -52 projects,9 GW capacity,0.7 plus or minus 0.6 hectares /MW capacity,implying total direct impact area on both temporary* and permanent disturbed land of about 1 plus or minus 0.7 hectare/MW
    -161 projects of 25 GW of capacity,excluding several outliers,average value for the total project area was about 34 plus or minus 22 hectares/MW,equal to a capacity density of 3 plus or minus 1.7/MW/km squared.

    The latter figure is close to the 82 acres a megawatt used as the basis for calculation in the opening post,so do you still object to it?

    *land can be restored to normal use
    patslatt, add up the GW figures in your post above and you will see that your OP is based on the minority of wind generation projects studied.

    The wind resource in Ireland is superior therefore the land area required will be less. Nobody is under any illusion that wind generation will remain a subsidised form of generation in Ireland therefore connection costs must be minimised, this is easier to accomplish in a concise configuration.
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  8. #108
    patslatt patslatt is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    Its your opinion that they wreck the countryside. Personally, I don't think much of the haciendas which pass for farmhouses, motorways and railways are not things of beauty either. I suppose we would be better served by comely maidens dancing at the crossroads (with their fathers sending home the wages from Birmingham, of course)
    Bungalow blitz in rural Ireland and ribbon development are just awful,contrasting sharply with preservation of landscapes in neighbouring UK. The economic depression could be the the gods' punishment for the Irish people's environmental depredation.

    That said,motorways are essential in a modern economy but we may have built too many to serve lightly populated areas. As for railways,they are unobtrusive as most of the area around the tracks is grassland. In the case of the new London Birmingham railway project,a few exceptional scenic landscapes are to be protected by rail tunnels.
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  9. #109
    bob3367 bob3367 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    Bungalow blitz in rural Ireland and ribbon development are just awful,contrasting sharply with preservation of landscapes in neighbouring UK. The economic depression could be the the gods' punishment for the Irish people's environmental depredation.

    That said,motorways are essential in a modern economy but we may have built too many to serve lightly populated areas. As for railways,they are unobtrusive as most of the area around the tracks is grassland. In the case of the new London Birmingham railway project,a few exceptional scenic landscapes are to be protected by rail tunnels.
    Thats fairly "windy" by any standards, and who gives a flying fck about London to Birmingham?
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  10. #110
    bob3367 bob3367 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    Bungalow blitz in rural Ireland and ribbon development are just awful,contrasting sharply with preservation of landscapes in neighbouring UK. The economic depression could be the the gods' punishment for the Irish people's environmental depredation.

    That said,motorways are essential in a modern economy but we may have built too many to serve lightly populated areas. As for railways,they are unobtrusive as most of the area around the tracks is grassland. In the case of the new London Birmingham railway project,a few exceptional scenic landscapes are to be protected by rail tunnels.
    I see you have altered your post, but its ok we have worked you out...
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