I be surprised if any of the authors of this "report" are on less than 100,000 a year. From their perspective, Im sure all really is rosy. However, it is far from just left wing groups who are drawing attention to the real problems. The Catholic church has been talking about social exclusion for a long time now and they can hardly be called left wing.
to those who claim that the recent election results are a sign that everyone in Ireland is having a great time, lets just remember. the PDs got 2 seats, and FF lost seats. And anyway, people vote in elections for many many different reasons, some of them personal, some of them ideological, some of them because of tradition or family loyalties, and some of them out of fear, or naiveity and ignorance (morons who believe the promises and propaganda despite the fact that manifestos and election promises are the first things to be thrown out the window the day the new government is formed)
The ESRI is not a neutral party here. They're the people who are campaigning for Cigarettes and Mortgage interest to be removed from the basket of goods for calculating Inflation as if increases in these goods wouldn't represent a significant cost burden for ordinary people)
Poverty and disadvantage is very real in Ireland. The economic boom has had long term consequences for Irish society that we will see far more starkly when the bubble bursts.
Actual morality is doing what is right regardless of what you're told. Religious morality is doing what you're told, regardless of if it's right.
Fintan O'Toole must be devastated. What's he going to gripe about now?
"Unless you are an absolute pacifist, then you acknowledge that there are times when taking up arms is appropriate."
- cactusflower
Very true!Originally Posted by Akrasia
There are many in government circles who want to deny that poverty exists at all in this country. Look at the figures from the CSO yesterday, Limerick city has 15% unemployment!
The gentrification in many urban areas has hidden various indicators of poverty and social exclusion, but the problems are still there.
even in traditional working class areas where employment has drastically improved conditions, social exclusion and barriers remain. Look at the figures of those from these communities who are going to third level.
What about brick layers who are earning 100,000+ but living in Finglas etc - is he middle class?So a doctor who signs one of the new public hospital consultant contracts and who would earn €205,000-plus per year for working in a public hospital for 39 hours per week would be a member of the working class? And would identify him/herself as such? And would vote for a political party representing the interests of the working class?
Dream on Friedrich, dream on.
Wealth does not define if some one is middle class -
This is where Ireland differs from North America. In the U.S. and Canada, people tend to live in houses they can afford, so its quite common for a fitter to live beside a doctor (bricklayers are rare). Most people describe themselves as middle class as they are neither poor nor excessively rich. The class war never developed as Roosevelt brought most of the militant labour organisations into the Democratic party. Now that I think of it, Bertie & FF have done the same.
If engineers were wrong as often as economists, would anyone fly aeroplanes?
Fianna Fails vote increased, although they did lose some seats. The PDs had their own internal difficulties. The parties which offered the most radical changes, fared poorest. This indicate to me a least the the population are relatively contented with their lot.
I don't see how you are call the ERSI neutrality into question on the basis that they wish to reform the method for calculating inflation in this country. There is a very strong case to be made for taking mortgage repayments out of the baskets of goods. Not because it is not a significant cost in peoples lives but because and anti-inflationary intrusent cause and increase in the headline rate of inflation.The ESRI is not a neutral party here. They're the people who are campaigning for Cigarettes and Mortgage interest to be removed from the basket of goods for calculating Inflation as if increases in these goods wouldn't represent a significant cost burden for ordinary people)
No one is claiming that poverty or disadvantage (the same thing really) is not a problem in Ireland, rather that is is not as great a problem as it was in the past and that even the less well off in Irish society have benefited for the Celtic Tiger.Poverty and disadvantage is very real in Ireland. The economic boom has had long term consequences for Irish society that we will see far more starkly when the bubble bursts.
"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative."
Oscar Wilde
What the ERSI fail to analyse is the difference between what could have been achieved during 10 years of unprecedented global boom and what actually was achieved. 117 billion pumped into a property bubble and only 1.25 billion made available for venture capital. Irish companies only accounting for 8% of exports. Only two Irish companies quoted on the Nasdaq, while over 70 Isreali companies are quoted. Last year 200 million was made available in venture capital in the 26, in Isreal over 800 million was made available. Less jobs in Irish manufacturing than 10 years ago. Its not like all this had not been seen before. Japan in the 80s was in a much better position to withstand a property crash, but when it happened it took Japan over ten years to recover from it. With the multi-nationals starting to move to Eastern Europe (and remember they account for 82% of the exports from the 26), and property starting to fall back to its real value, how long will it take the 26 to recover if we go into recession? The tragic thing is that we could have used 10 years of boom to build up our native production, instead, FF made sure it was all p1ssed down a totally unproductive property bubble.
Maybe not, but I bet he wouldn't think of voting for a left-wing party. Plus his kids would probably end up middle class if they were sent to private schools etc. Not unheard of you know!What about brick layers who are earning 100,000+ but living in Finglas etc - is he middle class?So a doctor who signs one of the new public hospital consultant contracts and who would earn €205,000-plus per year for working in a public hospital for 39 hours per week would be a member of the working class? And would identify him/herself as such? And would vote for a political party representing the interests of the working class?
Dream on Friedrich, dream on.
Wealth does not define if some one is middle class -
BTW, what factors (besides wealth and income) do you think defines a member of a particular social class?
'It would actually give me the greatest of pleasure watching non-compliant taxpayers going to jail. That's the kind of person I am.' Bertie Ahern, 1993.
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