"The real question is whether a wealthier society should not be held to higher standards than a poorer one. To judge Ireland by the miserable standards of the past and discover that we're doing grand, as the book tends to do, is surely to miss the point of change."
Unpleasant? I take it then that you're in favour of a complete untrammeled libertarian approach to social freedoms? No restrictions on pub closing times, defamation? Where are you on speed limits?Originally Posted by Leftfemme22
Good post.We don't have full freedom of speech, there are official secrets act, libel and slander laws, and there are laws against leaking information to the press.
The Editor of the Irish Times faced jail last year because she refused to reveal a source of a leak.
McDowell made it a serious crime for Gardai to leak information to the press (even though he himself leaked information about Frank Connoly for political purposes)
China is a totalitarian state, but the differences between Ireland and there are a matter of degree, not because we're inherently democratic and they're not. It's just a matter of strategy.
We have freedom to assemble, but there are lots of restrictions on that freedom (we can't assemble in a pub past half 11 on a weeknight, we can't assemble somewhere there is a court order preventing protests like in Mayo or shannon or at the various contentious roads projects.
Yes we have the 'freedom to protest' up to a point where the protests start to have any effect, at which time, people are arrested, protests are banned and batons are used.
When you place our so-called freedoms under a microscope all sorts of unpleasant truths are revealed.
Or is this a silly attempt to downplay the importance of personal freedoms by pretending we don't have that many at the moment?
Anyhow, Morgan Kelly's bit in the report, on housing, got good coverage on Morning Ireland today. An 'economist' from Sherry Fitzgerald tried to refute it, but was left floundering.
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Who are you having a go at there libedo, me or akrasia?Unpleasant? I take it then that you're in favour of a complete untrammeled libertarian approach to social freedoms? No restrictions on pub closing times, defamation? Where are you on speed limits?Good post.We don't have full freedom of speech, there are official secrets act, libel and slander laws, and there are laws against leaking information to the press.
The Editor of the Irish Times faced jail last year because she refused to reveal a source of a leak.
McDowell made it a serious crime for Gardai to leak information to the press (even though he himself leaked information about Frank Connoly for political purposes)
China is a totalitarian state, but the differences between Ireland and there are a matter of degree, not because we're inherently democratic and they're not. It's just a matter of strategy.
We have freedom to assemble, but there are lots of restrictions on that freedom (we can't assemble in a pub past half 11 on a weeknight, we can't assemble somewhere there is a court order preventing protests like in Mayo or shannon or at the various contentious roads projects.
Yes we have the 'freedom to protest' up to a point where the protests start to have any effect, at which time, people are arrested, protests are banned and batons are used.
When you place our so-called freedoms under a microscope all sorts of unpleasant truths are revealed.
Or is this a silly attempt to downplay the importance of personal freedoms by pretending we don't have that many at the moment?
Anyhow, Morgan Kelly's bit in the report, on housing, got good coverage on Morning Ireland today. An 'economist' from Sherry Fitzgerald tried to refute it, but was left floundering.
How do you extrapolate that I am in favour of a complete untrammeled libertarian approach to social freedoms from agreeing that there unpleasant truths about what we perceive to be 'Freedoms'.
Supposition? Mind reading? Or just a silly attempt to put words in my mouth?
'Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.'
Inigo Montoya.
Libero it seems you don't actually know what Lebertarianism actually is.
The ESRI is a highly partisan organisation dependent on the twin evils of government and corporate subsidy for it's survival. It's reports have all the relevance and independence of a McDonald's healthy food guide.
Now you are touching on a central tenet of republican and democratic ideology, with rights must come responsibilities. People have a right to freedom of expression and speach, but they cannot use this right to harm others by sullying their reputation wityhout reason, people have a right to protest so long as they do not harm others, 100,000n people chose to march through Dublin to oppose the Iraq war that was an entirely peaceful protest(I knikw I was there) and I saw no one being obstructed, but protesting by denying other people the right to conduct their lawful business(whether you agree it should be lawful or not) is a crime, I have never been involved in a protest group with violence on its agenda and have never been stopped from protesting, the biggest obstruction I ever found to my protesting, whether it be Shannon, Dublin or elsewhere were the SWP people standing in my way trying to sell me their bloody paper! I happen to agree that Geraldine Kennedy should not be jailed for refusing to name a source, she wasn't jailed and hasn't named the source, and that is one of many laws I oppose, but I am not entitled to break the law to oppose it, and I doubt very much that socialists would allow press freedom to that extent given that they do not believe in an independent press, I also would have a view which is different to current government policgy on the licensing laws, but this givernment has never lied about its policy on the licensing laws and people have democratically re-elected them so I must accept the government of the majority while voting for a different party...............no one should need the ersi to tell them about changes in ireland,I grew up in quite a poor neighbourhood, lived in the same estate for twenty-years and I have seen the changes which have improved the lives on the people on that estate(or indeed the changes oin the lives i ther people who were financially no longer dependent on state subsidised housing because their job opportunities improved and so moved out of our neighbourhood to give their children a better life, those people who continue to live on the estate have much better lives in all sorts of ways, from the number of their children who complete their eductaion, to the fact that unemployment, once about thirty per cent on the estate is now about 5%, to the number of them who have cars, to the number of them who have had the opportunity to buy their house from the council....the celtic tiger is an imperfect beast but it has improved the lives of the great majority of irish people from all social groupings
"Sometimes the best thing a government can do is simply get out of the way"-Vince Cable
How did the mayo farmers harm anyone in their protest? Are you going to extend the definition of harm to include economic and political harm? If you do, that's just rationalising and excuse making. (I'm sure the chinese justify the imprisonment of their political prisoners on the grounds that their actions cause harm too)
In a democracy people should be held to the same standards, so how come a protester can be charged with assault for simply pushing against a Garda, but a Garda can batton unarmed protesters with impunity? (Usually the protesters who suffer the most garda brutality are the pacifists who choose to sit down or use their own bodies as barriers... nobody only the most blinkered zealot can call this activity violent.
I have never been in a protest group intent on causing violence either. I have been involved in direct actions against unlawful activity Transportation of weapons and troops through Ireland to Iraq (and this is before the revisionist 'U.N. mandate' justification was applicable)100,000n people chose to march through Dublin to oppose the Iraq war that was an entirely peaceful protest(I knikw I was there) and I saw no one being obstructed, but protesting by denying other people the right to conduct their lawful business(whether you agree it should be lawful or not) is a crime, I have never been involved in a protest group with violence on its agenda and have never been stopped from protesting,
The reason why the 100,000 person march was allowed was because it was never enough to effect a change by itself (Many of the opportunistic politicians who spoke from that stage platform claiming to be opposed to the war have since come out in favour of the Use of Shannon in that same war (including the sell out greens)
The direct actions at Shannon were having a huge effect. U.S. troop carriers were pulling out of Shannon. What did the state do? Massively increased their mercenary security guard operations at shannon at the tax payers expense and re-assured them that us 'pesky protesters' would be kept under control.
[/quote:391ucgw0] Are you seriously suggesting that a single issue party based on reforming licensing laws would take an overall majority? People, even if they agreed with their position on that issue, would not vote for a candidate based on that one issue alone (unless they're an idiot)the biggest obstruction I ever found to my protesting, whether it be Shannon, Dublin or elsewhere were the SWP people standing in my way trying to sell me their bloody paper! I happen to agree that Geraldine Kennedy should not be jailed for refusing to name a source, she wasn't jailed and hasn't named the source, and that is one of many laws I oppose, but I am not entitled to break the law to oppose it, and I doubt very much that socialists would allow press freedom to that extent given that they do not believe in an independent press, [/qupte]
The SWP are not all socialists, and the groups I am involved in are 100% in favour of an independent press. Far more independent than the current corporate press that consistently lie to the people to suit their own financial interests (their consistantly dishonest reporting of the Irish property market is just one recent example, their treatment of the Anti war movement has been anything but independent. (especially since all of the anti war arguments have been fully vindicated by the passage of time)
[quote:391ucgw0]
I also would have a view which is different to current government policgy on the licensing laws, but this givernment has never lied about its policy on the licensing laws and people have democratically re-elected them so I must accept the government of the majority while voting for a different party
This is the kind of issue that is perfectly suited to direct local democracy where people can vote for their preferences on this specific issue locally instead of having to accept the whim of national politicians
Actual morality is doing what is right regardless of what you're told. Religious morality is doing what you're told, regardless of if it's right.
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