Value of fishing resources given to the EU by Ireland

[Seanie Lemass]

"Norway was not a colony, but had merely been the weaker member of two political unions: it was not colonized but hegemonized, and in the nineteenth century its principal theatre of war was often the theatre itself....Denmark's hegemony over Norway was indeed extremely mild compared with the subjugation of peoples who had been colonized."

(Ann Schmiesing, Norway's Christiania Theatre 1827 - 1867).

[ibis]

"Norway was not a colony, but had merely been the weaker member of two political unions: it was not colonized but hegemonized, and in the nineteenth century its principal theatre of war was often the theatre itself....Denmark's hegemony over Norway was indeed extremely mild compared with the subjugation of peoples who had been colonized."

(Ann Schmiesing, Norway's Christiania Theatre 1827 - 1867).

I'm saying they didn't have a historical "narrative" of colonisation. But for ordinary Norwegians I met, as for, say Scots, simply describing it as "the weaker member of two political unions" doesn't really cover it.

And while I'll undoubtedly attract some ire for saying it, the Irish narrative of "boo hoo poor us we were colonised" is part of the problem both of you have just referred to. That chosen national narrative is a major part of the "post-colonial hangover".

[Seanie Lemass]

I'm saying they didn't have a historical "narrative" of colonisation. But for ordinary Norwegians I met, as for, say Scots, simply describing it as "the weaker member of two political unions" doesn't really cover it.

And while I'll undoubtedly attract some ire for saying it, the Irish narrative of "boo hoo poor us we were colonised" is part of the problem both of you have just referred to. That chosen national narrative is a major part of the "post-colonial hangover".

Ibis, there is a whole literature and discipline around the issue of colonialism and post colonialism. It goes far beyond 'whinging' about famines and genocides and other atrocities (am obvioulsy referring to other than our experience as well) if you want to put it like that.

The failure to build a native entrepeuerial class and civil society capable of going beyond colonialism has been a real problem. More so for African countries perhaps than ourselves but there is without doubt a mentalitie which militates against proper development and we have witnessed that here at many levels; economic, cultural, political etc.

Some have used the analogy of a person recovering from an abusive relationship.

[ibis]

Ibis, there is a whole literature and discipline around the issue of colonialism and post colonialism. It goes far beyond 'whinging' about famines and genocides and other atrocities (am obvioulsy referring to other than our experience as well) if you want to put it like that.

The failure to build a native entrepeuerial class and civil society capable of going beyond colonialism has been a real problem. More so for African countries perhaps than ourselves but there is without doubt a mentalitie which militates against proper development and we have witnessed that here at many levels; economic, cultural, political etc.

Some have used the analogy of a person recovering from an abusive relationship.

Well, yes, and that proves what, though? Neither you, I, nor 99.9% of people in the state experienced British rule, and probably nobody in the state as an adult, at this stage. What "abusive relationship" are we supposed to be recovering from?

What I'm saying is that there's a national narrative of post-colonialism here, and one which has persisted well past the generations who actually experienced colonialism, whereas some post-colonial countries appear to move straight on past that. Saying "well, they obviously weren't really colonised" is like saying someone who fails to wallow properly in the misery of having been abused obviously wasn't really abused.

[He3]

Well, yes, and that proves what, though? Neither you, I, nor 99.9% of people in the state experienced British rule, and probably nobody in the state as an adult, at this stage. What "abusive relationship" are we supposed to be recovering from?

What I'm saying is that there's a national narrative of post-colonialism here, and one which has persisted well past the generations who actually experienced colonialism, whereas some post-colonial countries appear to move straight on past that. Saying "well, they obviously weren't really colonised" is like saying someone who fails to wallow properly in the misery of having been abused obviously wasn't really abused.

It would be a mistake to equate the Norwegian and Irish experience in this context as you appear to be doing.

On the insidious nature and the durability of the problem generally, I found this paper by Dr Garrett O'Connor interesting.

[ibis]

It would be a mistake to equate the Norwegian and Irish experience in this context as you appear to be doing.

I'm not equating them, as I've now said at least twice. I am drawing parallels, though.

On the insidious nature and the durability of the problem generally, I found this paper by Dr Garrett O'Connor interesting.

It's an interesting explanation, but could equally well be regarded as an exercise in apologetics. There are few characteristics of Irish society that aren't equally well explained by a relatively poor and rural conservative mindset, and indeed by the very long-term history of Irish political development reaching back to pre-colonial history.

The main damage I would see British rule as having done is that Ireland missed out on the development of a national mindset as anything other than a reactive force.

[Seanie Lemass]

The 'conservative mindset' is the one that ignored developmental opportunities, including dareisayit fishing!

[deepblue]

An enormous assumption - the TAC for Blue Whiting (in 2011) for ALL EU waters was 11,072 tonnes, well short of the "above 1,000,000 tonnes" you assume was available in Irish Waters (And I haven't bothered looking at the other figures).
At least half your figures are based on an assumption that doesn't hold up.

Passerby
You can find the figure of 955,000 tonnes of blue whiting caught for 2007 from the figures on pg 26 table 2.3.1 and pg 28 table 2.3.2 532,111 - 1,825 = 530,000 approx. and page 26 and 455,833 - 29232 = 425,000 approx.

As I answered to another poster have a look at the link at the top of my post, here it is again.http://oar.marine.ie/bitstream/10793...eland%2009.pdf

http://ec.europa.eu/fisheries/docume...tac2011_en.pdf

This is the link to your graph on 2011 TAC. Your graph is of interest and valid for the 2011 TAC (total allowable catch) in which you state that the blue whiting is now 11,072 for 2011. But look to the left and you will see an orange symbol, which means the sustainability is under threat due to previous years over fishing. Hence the severe pullback in the figure from previous years. Have a look at the extent of this overfishing at this link.
Blue whiting (Micromesistius poutassou)
This link shows the level of fish being taken yearly in blue whiting. 2 million tonnes each year of 2003-2005, although this reduces to 540K for 2010 and 590K for 2009.
Notice also as I said in previous post, where the spawning grounds for this species are, mostly in our EEZ waters and that this link states the price of this species is rising. Why would Norway come all the way to the Rockall bank (west of Mayo) if these fish could be caught in the North sea?
And the title of this thread is how much has been given so far? And hence it is valid to assess the value of the fish taken before they lowered the TAC levels.

Well, we certainly could survive outside the EU but fishing is hardly going to be the basis of doing so even using your figures.

Of course we could never survive on fish alone, and I never said we should try to, but it should form a strong pillar of our economic sustainability.

[myksav]

I'm saying they didn't have a historical "narrative" of colonisation. But for ordinary Norwegians I met, as for, say Scots, simply describing it as "the weaker member of two political unions" doesn't really cover it.

And while I'll undoubtedly attract some ire for saying it, the Irish narrative of "boo hoo poor us we were colonised" is part of the problem both of you have just referred to. That chosen national narrative is a major part of the "post-colonial hangover".

As I've said here before often enough, I'm a yankee by birth. the US got over the post-colonisation hangover thingy long long time ago.

And what the heck do you think annoys me about the "native" Irish? That 'hangover'. And the way it's hung onto because it is easier than standing up on your own two feet. Irish who emigrate seem to lose it at passport control.