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  1. #111
    Taxi Driver Taxi Driver is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishTom View Post
    In other words, irrelevant bullshiit!
    What do you think the CSO should produce? A huge spreadsheet with the disposable income of all 1.7 million households in the country? We need a way to summarise data. The mean and the median are useful ways of doing that. Deciles are even better. We have all of these.

    If you don't like the concept of averge per household why not have a look at the aggregates. CS provided a useful summary in an earlier post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra Syndrome View Post
    I would agree with the OP in terms of Net National Income less business profit per occupied house in this country. Net national Income less profit is around €75 Billion in total and the number of households occupied is around 1.7 Million. This gives a figure of around €44,000 per household. But a household could have many people working under the same roof.

    There are 3 million people over the age of 18 in this country. So the disposable income (or NNI less profit) per person 18+ is €25,000 per year. That's a figure that most of us peasants are accustomed too. When you have an average of nearly 2 per household over 18, its easier to grasp the €40,000 plus figure. There is about €25 Billion given out in social welfare payments that is included in that €75 Billion plus taxes and social insurance contributions (makes up around €20 billion).

    The net wages and salaries is around €60 to €65 Billion, the rest is made up of rental income and self employed earnings.
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  2. #112
    bogtrotter bogtrotter is offline

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    If I earn 20 thousand Euro a year and my neighbour earns 1 million does that mean that our average income is 600 thousand....what a load of rubbish...
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  3. #113
    junius junius is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Des Quirell View Post
    There's huge difference between your experience (which is anecdotal) and that of statisticians (which is based on surveys).

    None of my closest friends are on less than 70k (and they're not in spectacular occupations). I'm speaking a couple of programmers, a couple of very high-ranking Cibil Servants, a few accountants and a doctor and a lawyer thrown in there. None of them appear to be spectacularly minted. They can afford their mortgages and they can afford their car and their holidays, so don't get me wrong. They're in no way poor and they're not complaining in any way. It's just that your experience may differ from that of others and it's not a valid basis for attempting to decry a valid statistical based exercise.

    It's how the results of that exercise are interpreted that is key. Clearly the first step in interpretation is disconnecting those results from your own personal and purely anecdotal experience.

    To that I would add the repeated point in this thread that the income refers to households - not to individuals.
    Well, well, well, excuse my mere being! What about the wife???
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  4. #114
    bogtrotter bogtrotter is offline

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    If I earn 20 thousand Euro a year and my neighbour earns 1 million does that mean that our average income is 500 thousand....what a load of rubbish...
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  5. #115
    Taxi Driver Taxi Driver is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by IfOnly View Post
    What a load of tosh... this body has lost all credibility coming out with this crap, they obviously haven't discovered a pretty big error in the "model"
    What "model"? The results are based on a survey of 11,587 people. The results are just the outcome of arithmetic. They are not modelled.
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  6. #116
    Taxi Driver Taxi Driver is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by bogtrotter View Post
    If I earn 20 thousand Euro a year and my neighbour earns 1 million does that mean that our average income is 600 thousand....what a load of rubbish...
    This sort of stuff is incredible!!!
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  7. #117
    Taxi Driver Taxi Driver is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by bogtrotter View Post
    If I earn 20 thousand Euro a year and my neighbour earns 1 million does that mean that our average income is 500 thousand....what a load of rubbish...
    More incredible stuff!

    Try again, maybe it will be a case of third time lucky.
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  8. #118
    MichealMcGrath MichealMcGrath is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by hedzog View Post
    Based on what , selling houses to each other again ?
    We just have to bring another half million people in here to buy them
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  9. #119
    yobosayo yobosayo is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    In 2010, the Irish government paid out €24,759 million of cash transfer payments to Irish households. This is €24.8 billion of untaxed income received by households. That is almost €15,000 per household. We don't have the 2010 figures but here are average social transfers receipts by income decile in 2009. The average disposable income by decile were in a previous post and are provided here in annual terms. The second figure listed is the amount of that disposable income that results from social transfers. The final figure is the average number of people per household

    1st decile: €10,943 €10,058 1.24
    2nd decile: €16,659 €13,989 1.65
    3rd decile: €23,040 €18,039 2.26
    4th decile: €28,906 €19,622 2.71
    5th decile: €35,110 €18,545 2.72
    6th decile: €41,732 €15,568 2.93
    7th decile: €50,223 €14,673 3.29
    8th decile: €59,305 €13,386 3.13
    9th decile: €73,988 €9,403 3.45
    10th decile: €118,352 €15,957 3.78
    Didn't you just prove some others' point? 60% of the households have less than the 43K disposable income. One otherwise wonders why the top 10% need almost 16K in "social transfers" as well. I would suggest that such number is simply obscene. Perhaps Eire's new motto can be: Leave the 80-89% group for the Top 10 and you'll net an additional 6+K in "social transfers". Lastly, and by the way, I trust that you understand that the one point made by Irish Tom is correct. Look at the Top 20%. Add them together. Then ask yourself how many other groups of 10 you need to add together to match that. So you get the point, start with the bottom 10 and add on. You should find that the Top 20 have more household income than the bottom 60%.

    Edited to add: While you're adding groups of 10, compare the Top 10 with the bottom 50 (or bottom half). Should be 118,352 versus 114,658.
    Last edited by yobosayo; 3rd December 2011 at 08:27 AM.
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  10. #120
    Taxi Driver Taxi Driver is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by yobosayo View Post
    Didn't you just prove some others' point? 60% of the households have less than the 43K disposable income. One otherwise wonders why the top 10% need almost 16K in "social transfers" as well. I would suggest that such number is simply obscene. Perhaps Eire's new motto can be: Leave the 80-89% group for the Top 10 and you'll net an additional 6+K in "social transfers". Lastly, and by the way, I trust that you understand that the one point made by Irish Tom is correct. Look at the Top 20%. Add them together. Then ask yourself how many other groups of 10 you need to add together to match that. So you get the point, start with the bottom 10 and add on. You should find that the Top 20 have more household income than the bottom 60%.

    Edited to add: While you're adding groups of 10, compare the Top 10 with the bottom 50 (or bottom half). Should be 118,352 versus 114,658.
    I'm not out to prove anyones' point. I am simply providing the numbers. Most of the arguments against are based on empty rhetoric, idle speculation, self flagellation or just pure nonsense.

    The data by decile show that 680,000 household have a disposable income of more than €41,732. The reaction of some people is that if you don't say that every household in the country is boiling stones for soup you don't know what's happening.

    As I said in the OP there has been plenty said about the obvious inequality alright and most of the discussion in the media tended to be on the deteriorating inequality seen in 2010. One thing to the careful of is comparing household deciles that does not make it appropriate to simply add deciles.

    The top decile has the largest number of people at 3.78 per household. Of these an average of 2.1 are working while 0.76 are not economically active (many of whom are retired) while only 0.11 people per household are unemployed. They also have an average of 0.8 children under 16. Ten households in the top decile will on average have 37 people with 21 people working, 8 not economically active, 8 children under 16 and 1 unemployed person.

    The fifth (middle) decile has 2.72 people per household. Ten households in the top decile will on average have 27 people with 8 people working, 11 people not economically active, 6 children under 16 and 2 unemployed people.

    The top household decile collects more transfers because it includes more people and therefore collects more payment, particularly universal ones such as the pension and child benefit.

    The overcome problems such as this the CSO provide "equivalised" income which is essentially income per individual. Using this the CSO report that the share of income in the top quintile in 2010 was 5.5 times the share of income in the bottom quintile. In 2009 the gap was 4.3. The income quintile share ratio of 5.5 was the highest since the survey was begun in 2004.
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