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  1. #621
    Taxi Driver Taxi Driver is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard dengler View Post
    Hold on a second.

    Trading of bonds in the secondary markets operate outside of the Irish jurisdiction in most cases.
    Those secondary market bond transactions are not required to be registered with the authorities here.
    The Irish Stock Exchange is not the "authorities here". The Irish Stock Exchange is a private company. It happens to be where Irish Government Bonds are listed so trades will be registered there. The buyers and sellers might all be international but the trades must be recorded somewhere.
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  2. #622
    Taxi Driver Taxi Driver is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard dengler View Post
    Hold on a second.

    Trading of bonds in the secondary markets operate outside of the Irish jurisdiction in most cases.
    Those secondary market bond transactions are not required to be registered with the authorities here.
    The Irish Stock Exchange have some details of Irish government bonds here.

    Irish Government Bonds

    The Irish Government bond market is primarily based on a Primary Dealer system which was introduced at the end of 1995. Primary dealers are required to quote bid and offer prices for designated Irish benchmark bonds on one of the electronic trading platforms recognised by the NTMA. Trading can also be conducted on an OTC basis particularly in the non-benchmark bonds. Primary dealers report trades in Irish Government bonds to the ISE on a daily basis and this information is then published by the ISE. Most trading is undertaken for the institutional and professional market.

    There are a number of Primary Dealers who are authorised by the National Treasury Management Agency (“NTMA") and are members of the Irish Stock Exchange. While primary dealers account for most of the turnover in Irish Government bonds there are a number of other member firms who are also authorised by the ISE to deal in Government bonds.The NTMA monitors trading in Irish Government bonds on a real time basis and ensures primary dealers comply with their obligations. For further details about the NTMA and its operations please click here - NTMA - Home - Terms and Conditions. Trades dealt in Irish Government bonds have a standard settlement of T+3. Irish Government Bonds are cleared and settled by Euroclear Bank.

    Chapter 6 of the Rulebook relates to Irish Government Bonds, other details are also outlined in the Market Parameters.
    The "Primary Dealers" is a list of companies who the NTMA deal with when they issue bonds for the first time - the primary markets. These dealers and an added list of brokers can offer trades in Irish government bonds from buyers who already hold them - the secondary market. It is these trades that are reported to the ISE and €350 million worth of them happened today as listed above.
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  3. #623
    gerhard dengler gerhard dengler is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    The Irish Stock Exchange have some details of Irish government bonds here.



    The "Primary Dealers" is a list of companies who the NTMA deal with when they issue bonds for the first time - the primary markets. These dealers and an added list of brokers can offer trades in Irish government bonds from buyers who already hold them - the secondary market. It is these trades that are reported to the ISE and €350 million worth of them happened today as listed above.
    NTMA issue a bond and that bond is purchased by Barclays in London.
    Barclay's pay the value of the bond to the Irish government.

    Barclay's decide at some later point to trade that bond with Nomura (or some other party).

    Where is the Barclay/Nomura tranaction recorded?
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  4. #624
    Taxi Driver Taxi Driver is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard dengler View Post
    NTMA issue a bond and that bond is purchased by Barclays in London.
    Barclay's pay the value of the bond to the Irish government.

    Barclay's decide at some later point to trade that bond with Nomura (or some other party).

    Where is the Barclay/Nomura tranaction recorded?
    The names don't really matter but Barclays and Nomura are not buyers and sellers; they are the dealers. Assume the NTMA is about to issue €1 million worth of a bond.

    A buyer (Fund Z) is interested in this new bond and goes to Barclays as their dealer. Barclays arrange for the bond to be purchased by their client and the €1 million is paid to the NTMA.

    Down the line Fund Z wants to sell on the bond so again goes to their dealer (Barclays) or a few of them (say Nomura) and gives them the offer price and amount they are willing to sell at.

    Other buyers may have made bids to Barclays and Nomura and if they match the trade will occur. If the bid of Fund A matches the offer of Fund Z the trade occurs and ownership of the bond changes.

    Barclays never actually hold the bond but merely act as the link between the primary seller (the NTMA) and buyers (Fund Z) and then these owners to other buyers in the secondary markets (like Fund A).

    When Barclays (or Nomura or any of the dealers) complete the trade they register it with the Irish Stock Exchange (who have nothing to do with the trade) and the ISE report the figures listed above.
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  5. #625
    gerhard dengler gerhard dengler is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    The names don't really matter but Barclays and Nomura are not buyers and sellers; they are the dealers. Assume the NTMA is about to issue €1 million worth of a bond.

    A buyer (Fund Z) is interested in this new bond and goes to Barclays as their dealer. Barclays arrange for the bond to be purchased by their client and the €1 million is paid to the NTMA.

    Down the line Fund Z wants to sell on the bond so again goes to their dealer (Barclays) or a few of them (say Nomura) and gives them the offer price and amount they are willing to sell at.

    Other buyers may have made bids to Barclays and Nomura and if they match the trade will occur. If the bid of Fund A matches the offer of Fund Z the trade occurs and ownership of the bond changes.

    Barclays never actually hold the bond but merely act as the link between the primary seller (the NTMA) and buyers (Fund Z) and then these owners to other buyers in the secondary markets (like Fund A).

    When Barclays (or Nomura or any of the dealers) complete the trade they register it with the Irish Stock Exchange (who have nothing to do with the trade) and they report the figures listed above.
    OK.
    So when Fund Z sells the bond on to Fund A, via Barclays (or some other dealer), Barclay's are required to register this transaction too with ISEQ?

    Despite the fact that the initial transaction (where Fund Z bought the NTMA bond, via Barclays) has been registered at ISEQ?
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  6. #626
    Taxi Driver Taxi Driver is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard dengler View Post
    OK.
    So when Fund Z sells the bond on to Fund A, via Barclays (or some other dealer), Barclay's are required to register this transaction too with ISEQ?

    Despite the fact that the initial transaction (where Fund Z bought the NTMA bond, via Barclays) has been registered at ISEQ?
    Yes, all trades by the primary dealers and brokers are registered. It is part of the rules of financial markets. Trades must be reported and the price made public. Otherwise how would we know what something is trading at? It would be like the Irish real estate market!
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  7. #627
    gerhard dengler gerhard dengler is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi Driver View Post
    Yes, all trades by the primary dealers and brokers are registered. It is part of the rules of financial markets. Trades must be reported and the price made public. Otherwise how would we know what something is trading at? It would be like the Irish real estate market!
    I'm aware that the initial trade has to registered (NTMA sell the bond, via Barclay's, to Fund Z).

    Using your analogy.

    A buyer (Fund Z) is interested in this new bond and goes to Barclays as their dealer. Barclays arrange for the bond to be purchased by their client and the €1 million is paid to the NTMA.

    Down the line Fund Z wants to sell on the bond so again goes to their dealer (Barclays) or a few of them (say Nomura) and gives them the offer price and amount they are willing to sell at.

    Other buyers may have made bids to Barclays and Nomura and if they match the trade will occur. If the bid of Fund A matches the offer of Fund Z the trade occurs and ownership of the bond changes.


    You're saying that subsequent Fund A bond sale to Fund Z transaction (underlined above) must also be registered at ISEQ too?
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  8. #628
    Taxi Driver Taxi Driver is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard dengler View Post
    i'm aware that the initial trade has to registered (ntma sell the bond, via barclay's, to fund z).

    Using your analogy.

    a buyer (fund z) is interested in this new bond and goes to barclays as their dealer. Barclays arrange for the bond to be purchased by their client and the €1 million is paid to the ntma.

    Down the line fund z wants to sell on the bond so again goes to their dealer (barclays) or a few of them (say nomura) and gives them the offer price and amount they are willing to sell at.

    Other buyers may have made bids to barclays and nomura and if they match the trade will occur. if the bid of fund a matches the offer of fund z the trade occurs and ownership of the bond changes.


    you're saying that subsequent fund a bond sale to fund z transaction (underlined above) must also be registered at iseq too?
    yes.
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  9. #629
    odlum odlum is offline
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    Good news for NTMA just ahead of t-bill auction. 1 year bond down 17% in early morning trading (1.2%). 5, 7 and 9 year bonds also down. The rest up slightly.
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  10. #630
    Taxi Driver Taxi Driver is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard dengler View Post
    OK.
    So when Fund Z sells the bond on to Fund A, via Barclays (or some other dealer), Barclay's are required to register this transaction too with ISEQ?

    Despite the fact that the initial transaction (where Fund Z bought the NTMA bond, via Barclays) has been registered at ISEQ?
    The information note for today's T-Bill auction has the following line

    Bills will be listed on the Irish Stock Exchange and Primary Dealers are subject to the normal reporting obligations to the Exchange.
    And this information memorandum on the T-bills says that the Primary Dealers must

    supply, as may be applicable and according to the form and requirements of Irish Stock Exchange, the information required for following up their activity in the secondary market and for monitoring compliance with the rules of the Irish Stock Exchange.
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