ISME warns: Public Sector Overpaid- diasaster in offing

[adamirer]

As for the qualifications of public sector staff what percentage of those degrees were attained while working for the public sector? The public sector pays the fees and gives very generous study leave to its employees and this largesse is then used as justification for paying themselves more!

Absenteeism needs to be tackled.

Why are public sector employees not headhunted by the private sector?

few comments, 1) you need a degree to apply for EO, Ao - the two most senior entry level grades into the civil service. The open HEO/AP etc have similar requirements. ie: you need your degree BEFORE you can enter. Further, thousands apply to join as AO, EO etc, a few hundred, sometime less than 200, succeed. Why? Becuase they are better in the exams than the rest. I'm a BA, MA x 2, Hdip in Comp Sci and i'm proud of the quality of work i do. I've also worked in the private sector for 5 years between college and civil service, and there's very little difference in work ethic, just directions from the board/Ministers

2) agreed.

3) Those of us exposed to 3rd parties often are. But thats the point in head hunting a garda, a nurse, a teacher??? Most jobs are public sector specific.

[cyberianpan]

this comment:

If the public service is so well paid compared to the private sector then quit and join the public service...

conflicts with this:

You can't leave and come back or else you have to start again

So people are unlikely to quit a high paid demanding job for entry level , furthermore this creates a closed culture.

Garda & Prison staff get so well paid due to overtime and the fact that they are basically understaffed for the amount of time work that is required

Bad management : they shouldn't take on the work if they don't have the staff, fact is management are poor & like to give out overtime- see how the prsion officers revolted when it was taken away ?.

I've got it for one day in 5 years. Similarly as an EO I was responsible for a €10m cross border infrastructure plan, a media campaign, construction projects, amongst others. How many people in the private sector do that level of work. or that responsibility for under €35k a year... exactly

I wondered how my money was wasted... that again is disturbingly bad management, giving someone on €35k responsibility for €10m ?

consultants are hired because Ministers like them, its seen as 'independent' and because they have the time (and often experience) to do work that stretched civil servants don't - especially when you're moved to a new section every 3 years.

Every 3 years ? In private sector 3 years would be long. Also that movement is meant to gain you the diversity of experience.

Promotions are ridgid ... Wages are set, regardless of ability

And I'd take a flying guess & imagine that ability strongly correlates with productivity. That's my central problem, wages are just payed willy-nilly to all on a grade.

The more I hear the more I realise that public service are NOT modelled for ability & productivity., yet unions just negotiate pay rises all the time as there is no market metric. Thus all non essential services must be put out to tender or privatised urgently.

cYp

[Pax]

But a return to the real issue: Pax has admitted that income inequality is acceptable so this is at least clear.

You really are a tool aren't you? I don't support smashing pay levels down to the lowest level through a divide and conquer strategy. I support solidarity in raising them up. It's quite simple really.

[Pax]

Various Left wing bull

[Ronanr]

Bad management : they shouldn't take on the work if they don't have the staff, fact is management are poor & like to give out overtime- see how the prsion officers revolted when it was taken away ?.

So you would be happy to see John Lonergan turning away convicted criminals because he would have pay overtime to prison officers to look after them, is that what you want to see cyberianpan?

Or just let out a few rapists early?

[cyberianpan]

But a return to the real issue: Pax has admitted that income inequality is acceptable so this is at least clear.

You really are a tool aren't you? I don't support smashing pay levels down to the lowest level through a divide and conquer strategy. I support solidarity in raising them up. It's quite simple really.

So when you wrote

The average public sector worker is better-educated and more highly-skilled than the average private-sector worker - just because of what the public sector does (medicine, teaching, administration etc).

Also, most public sector workers are represented by unions whereas most private-sector workers are not, and collective bargaining puts workers in a stronger position. All public-sector workers get the national pay agreement increases for example, and many private-sector workers do not. It's more a case of private-sector workers being underpaid than public-sector workers being overpaid.

Some good points.

The fashion in which you quoted him implied agreement & his first point quoted above implies income inequality is accpetable. So specifically which of Tribe's arguments do you support ?

Also I don't support raising or lowering any wages per se, I just wish to align supply & demand. Central Command Planning has failed miserably the method taht works to align supply & demand is the free market.

I suspect that public sector workers are probably overpaid vis-a-vis their output. This implies that private sector workers are over taxed.

I would prefer that public sector workers be forced to fess up their over pay & this be returned to private sector workers as tax cust.

But given that Central Command Planning is weak, I'd rather not trust teh decisions to the politicians. Thus I'd far rather privatising as much of the public service as possible. Then we'd all have better lifestyles.

Remember almost every material advance in living standards has been effected through capitalism, the 15th century peasant lived a short nasty brutish life. Now the modern worker lives in a clean comfortable house that a 15th centturty king would be envious of, has plenty of food & lives to nearly 80.

cYp

[cyberianpan]

Bad management : they shouldn't take on the work if they don't have the staff, fact is management are poor & like to give out overtime- see how the prsion officers revolted when it was taken away ?.

So you would be happy to see John Lonergan turning away convicted criminals because he would have pay overtime to prison officers to look after them, is that what you want to see cyberianpan?

Or just let out a few rapists early?

Load balancing is a part of all jobs.
> Should a bank leave money lying around in the front office because they are short of security staff
> Should a hairdresser cut half your hair because they are too busy and want to finish at 5 ?

No then they'd do overtime if needed. Junior staff often like over time- it is 1.5 or double pay, on average they'd prefer 10 hours a week rather than a new work colleague. In the private sector a manger with a persistent high overtime bill would be out on their ass. A firm with a persistent high overtime bill (thus obviously over market rates) would go bust.

Issue with the Prsion Officers & Gardai is that management gave them overtime to keep them sweet, soft option as there is no market discipline.

cYp

[Ronanr]

Load balancing is a part of all jobs.

So does that mean you agree that John Lonergan should have the leeway to let out a few rapists a few months early if his overtime bill is getting too large?

[cyberianpan]

Load balancing is a part of all jobs.

So does that mean you agree that John Lonergan should have the leeway to let out a few rapists a few months early if his overtime bill is getting too large.

That is clearly not what I am saying. There will always may be extra work to be done on any one day & it will have to be done. The issue is that a persistently high overtime bill implies incompetent management. As I said in the post just above

Issue with the Prison Officers & Gardai is that management gave them overtime to keep them sweet, soft option

Instead of highlighting the overtime practice they colluded with it. As a manager a soft option for me would be to ignore fact I need to hire 2 extra staff & instead give my poor staff 5 hours each over time. By the way by management I mean from local supervisor right up to & including Minister foir Justice.

cYp

[GerMan]

cyberianpan>> you sound like my economics lecturer in college. Could you illustrate a supply/demand curve for some of your points.