ISME warns: Public Sector Overpaid- diasaster in offing

[cyberianpan]

But a return to the real issue: Pax has admitted that income inequality is acceptable so this is at least clear. What is not are the recent increases in public sector pay: have they led to greater productivity/value for money ?

How will cutting nurse's working hours improve health services ?

The real issue remains:

We've had a boom so we all get more money after tax
However we are paying more total tax also
The government appears to be giving disproportionate increases to permanent, pensionable, unfireable staff which aren't linked to productivity.

There will at some time come a downturn & then we'll still have a huge pubolic payroll, like France.

Has this government spent & bargained well/smartly ?

cYp

[sparkey321]

Various Left wing bull

What a load of crap. Bring yoru thinkin into the private sector then this country would be destroyed overnight as the private sector collapsed. Then who would pay the massive public sector wages ??

The economy is powered by the private sector. The public sector by definition do not earn money. They take it from the public sector.

I agree a high percentage of public sector have third level qualifications but I would argue they are not required. My own brother is a qualified manufacturing engineer with a masters and 2 post grad diplomas.

He works in the public sector in the department of agriculture working on farm payments. His job (as he freely admits) could be carried out by any junior cert student who knows how to use a computer but the job spec says he needs a degree. He went to the public sector because he could not handle the private sector. He didnt want to work an average 50 hour week on sallary with no overtime payments and minimal job security. He now works (or as he puts it attends) 39 hours max, has unbelieveable pension benifits, sick pay scheme and got a raise to do so.

In the private sector unions have been pretty much abandoned as they did nothing but cause unrest and result in everyone getting the same reward regardless of how hard they worke. They also put companies out of business. (I worked for a company that closed due to completely unrealistic union demands so I resigned from the union and will never again join one)

The big difference between private and public sector is market demand and fiscal responsibility. When I get my review and we discuss my pay raise it depends on two things. Ny performance and the company performance. If the company can affoard it and I deserve it I get a decent raise. If I dont or the company cannot affoard it I dont.

If I dont like it I can allways get another job. If I dont perform I get sacked. My pay is allways kept inline with the market, if I make myself too expencive I will be replaced.

In the public sector there is no incentive to perform as you will get the same pay and raises no matter what. There is no fiscal responsibility as the government is seen as a bottomless pit. There is no accountability.

When you want a raise just get your union to aask for it. If you dont like the answer strike and F&^k over your customers as they have nowhere else to go.

The public sector unions need a dose of reality. Public sector employees need a dose of reality.

The next government need to take on the unions and face them down. The nurses got off too easy in my opinion. They should have got nothing.

Their average pay (including overtime and allowances) is currently 59K. Thats is almost twice the average industrial wage and much mroe than an engineer would make in the private sector. Is it any wonder inflation is so high.

[zoinks]

The average public sector worker is better-educated and more highly-skilled than the average private-sector worker - just because of what the public sector does (medicine, teaching, administration etc).
Also, most public sector workers are represented by unions whereas most private-sector workers are not, and collective bargaining puts workers in a stronger position. All public-sector workers get the national pay agreement increases for example, and many private-sector workers do not. It's more a case of private-sector workers being underpaid than public-sector workers being overpaid.

Let me see, what fuels the economy? IT, Parma, Retail, small business and construction, they pay the bills. and on average small wage increases in the last 5 years

[Schuhart]

Like a previous poster I work in the hi tech export industry - a small handful of companies that are responsible for over 87% of our exports in value

I think we have to let the scales fall from our eyes on this a little. A small number of foreign owned firms account for a hell of a lot of the value of our exports. Given that ‘value’ in this context really depends on the internal accounting policies of multinationals, the more cynical among us would see this as evidence of transfer pricing – i.e. those firms apportioning their costs within their international organisations to artificially inflate their Irish located ‘profits’ so they can avail of our lower tax.

You’ll understand, if by accident you happen to be working in an Irish owned firm that’s not a refutation of this general picture as, generally, Irish owned exporting firms account for far less of the value of our exports.

These foreign firms are headquartered elsewhere, so their Irish workforce don’t really participate in their strategic decisions. Hence, Irish private sector workers have much the same Hobbit like existence as State employees. There’s also a cross dependence as those private sector jobs depend really on the shrinking ability of the Irish State to offer tax advantages to outsiders in a somewhat crowded market and not on any particular actions by the local workforce.

The government appears to be giving disproportionate increases to permanent, pensionable, unfireable staff which aren't linked to productivity.

That, I feel, is a clear statement of the situation. And ‘pensionable’ in particular is something that should be giving us pause for thought.

[Tribe 14]

I worked for a company that closed due to completely unrealistic union demands .

Which company is that?

[Edo]

Like a previous poster I work in the hi tech export industry - a small handful of companies that are responsible for over 87% of our exports in value

I think we have to let the scales fall from our eyes on this a little. A small number of foreign owned firms account for a hell of a lot of the value of our exports. Given that ‘value’ in this context really depends on the internal accounting policies of multinationals, the more cynical among us would see this as evidence of transfer pricing – i.e. those firms apportioning their costs within their international organisations to artificially inflate their Irish located ‘profits’ so they can avail of our lower tax.

You’ll understand, if by accident you happen to be working in an Irish owned firm that’s not a refutation of this general picture as, generally, Irish owned exporting firms account for far less of the value of our exports.

These foreign firms are headquartered elsewhere, so their Irish workforce don’t really participate in their strategic decisions. Hence, Irish private sector workers have much the same Hobbit like existence as State employees. There’s also a cross dependence as those private sector jobs depend really on the shrinking ability of the Irish State to offer tax advantages to outsiders in a somewhat crowded market and not on any particular actions by the local workforce.

The government appears to be giving disproportionate increases to permanent, pensionable, unfireable staff which aren't linked to productivity.

That, I feel, is a clear statement of the situation. And ‘pensionable’ in particular is something that should be giving us pause for thought.

Good post - I take your point completely in regard to the FMNs who are based here. Of course they are only here for the 12.5% tax rate - but its still 12.% of a hell of lot of money that the gov would not otherwise be receiving to help foot the public service bill.

I work for an Irish multi-national (yes they do exist) in the same industry - headquartered here in Dublin so yes my situation is a little different to others in Leixlip and Limerick.

You are perfectly correct to raise the point that when you take the multinationals out of the picture , what we are left with here is like the emperors new clothes - a bloated public sector , a declining and dying obsolete manufacturing sector, an ever smaller agri secotr and everybody else is building, selling, outfitting,financing and refinancing fecking houses ! - That should be food for thought to everybody in this country who wants to keep their current standard of living - at the end of the pay you have to earn to spend - we are fast approaching our national credit card limit.

[zakalwe]

wages are what the market will bear. not what you can get out of the politicians.

get real. public sector bar the essentials (education health justice) is a waste of money and a great way to ensure 100k votes for the party which promises most for least work aka FF.

[joeclogs]

Agree with much of what pax said. I'd like to see a government establish a 'dept of public sector reform'. Benchmarking was a secretive joke and the greatest failure of the last govt. In effect they committed to spending c.€40 billion without telling us the taxpayers how they calculated it (40 billion figure based on a rough annuity value of annual rise of 2 billion). That is the greatest investment in the history of the state and they got it badly wrong according to the ESRI who did a benchmarking exercise that said the public sector workers earn more than their private sector equivalents (around 11% more off the top of my head)
We need pay freezes, performance related pay and staff reductions in the public sector to bring earnings back into line.
Also some other points to make in this debate:

Public sector workers move up along the pay scale every year and get that rise on top of there pay agreement rises so even with a pay freeze the majority will still bring home more pay!

Private sector staff are basically precluded from applying for most public sector jobs as the majority are restricted to existing staff. If you want to join the public sector you have to start at the bottom,then serve your time and rise through the ranks. Your colleagues have all done the same thing and you become immersed in the culture and worst practices of the public sector. Open recruitment will bring fresh ideas and methodologies to the public sector.

As for the qualifications of public sector staff what percentage of those degrees were attained while working for the public sector? The public sector pays the fees and gives very generous study leave to its employees and this largesse is then used as justification for paying themselves more!

What percentage of the degrees are of no real value in the real economy eg Arts degrees?

Benchmarking did not put a value on job security but it has a very real financial value. To estimate this look at the difference in mortgage that will be granted to a public sector employee and a private sector employee but with the same gross salary.

Performance related pay needs to be introduced. I imagine it must be disheartening for the conscientious public servants to realise that whether they work hard or spend weeks on sick leave they will receive the same pay rise.

Absenteeism needs to be tackled.

Why are public sector employees not headhunted by the private sector? The only public sector employees who are in demand in the private sector are those who have worked in planning depts and who can facilitate developers or revenue officials who actually have a good technical knowledge and contacts. The rest of the public sector are viewed as overpaid and unwilling to work by the private sector

[cyberianpan]

wages are what the market will bear. not what you can get out of the politicians.

get real. public sector bar the essentials (education health justice) is a waste of money and a great way to ensure 100k votes for the party which promises most for least work aka FF.

Education,Health,Justice are essential ? ... tick ... tick ... tick ... hmmmmm

Education: 80 staff
Well yes I suppose you need a body to oversee/promote standards of education. Seeing that you don't mention Social Welfare that doesn't sound like we'd even have to give out vouchers.

Health: 500 staff
Hmmmm well again I suppose we will help anybody who is comatose or injured in an accident so we'll need some regulatory staf to oversee the tenders for provision of ambulances & A&E services & process claims.

Justice: 13,000 staff
Well here we could move drafting of legislation to barristers on a piece work basis, would need some tender oversight again. I'm pretty sure taht we could outsource prisions in that we could describe a clear contract with measureable performance. Unfortunately suspect we might have to keep the Gardai as I'm not so sure that we could describe what they are meant to do...

General advisers, regulators & TD's : 1000 staff

Ok then so we'd be down to ~15,000 civil servants. I could live with that !

cYp

[adamirer]

Like a previous poster I work in the hi tech export industry - a small handful of companies that are responsible for over 87% of our exports in value

I think we have to let the scales fall from our eyes on this a little. A small number of foreign owned firms account for a hell of a lot of the value of our exports. Given that ‘value’ in this context really depends on the internal accounting policies of multinationals, the more cynical among us would see this as evidence of transfer pricing – i.e. those firms apportioning their costs within their international organisations to artificially inflate their Irish located ‘profits’ so they can avail of our lower tax.

Well said. Don't get ahead of yourselves thinking the private sector is so wonderful and public sector contributes nothing. Remember the private sector includes cleaners, people working in hmv, cothes shops, dunnes etc, so its not by any means all high end skills and mentally stimulating work. Forgive the classist nature of that comment, but the fact is it is not exactly high value adding. Any junior cert students, as one poster put it, could do a HELL of a lot of private sector job. and hey, in fact are!!!!

If the public service is so well paid compared to the private sector then quit and join the public service...

Garda & Prison staff get so well paid due to overtime and the fact that they are basically understaffed for the amount of time work that is required. If there were 4,000 more garda etc you'd find the overtime bill come down a lot.

Civil servants, teachers etc, don't really get paid overtime. I've got it for one day in 5 years. Similarly as an EO I was responsible for a €10m cross border infrastructure plan, a media campaign, construction projects, amongst others. How many people in the private sector do that level of work. or that responsibility for under €35k a year... exactly. It took me 4 years in the civil service to earn the same as my last private sector job (in IT), and I guarantee you i wouldn't have left that job if i had known decentralisation was going to happen.

Public service is too broad to be so handily labelled. Exactly what professions should be paid less? The doctors? nurses? teachers? garda?

Remember, virtually all teachers had a 3rd level degree, and most post primary have a hdip in Ed, the entry level for EO, AO and higher in the civil service is a primary degree and the average graduate salary is around 28-32k.

While there are many benefits, and thats not disputed, there are also many difficulties that are rarely mentioned. The entire civil service promotional system has been almost frozen since Dec 2003, there's bee a huge brain drain from key areas to facilitate decentralisation, our jobs are used as political footballs (bye bye Parlon if there is any justice).

Promotions are ridgid and we are not assigned to where we are interested. Wages are set, regardless of ability. You can't leave and come back or else you have to start again - hence we stay even when miserable.

Finally, consultants are hired because Ministers like them, its seen as 'independent' and because they have the time (and often experience) to do work that stretched civil servants don't - especially when you're moved to a new section every 3 years.