What wonderful logic. It means that nothing can ever be judged a failure, since there may possibly have been a worse alternative.Originally Posted by goosebump
You've either forgotten about other alternatives (does the word "wind-down" ring a bell?), as mentioned by others on threads to which you've contributed, and in the national media, or you're dishonestly pretending they don't exist.
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Indeed Squire.What strikes me on the establishment of the NAMA was the rush to fill it's key positions and organisational structure with insiders who could have previous social or commercial associations with some of it's encumbered future client base.This could have been avoided by seeking out experienced outsiders with expertise in the establishment and operation of a distressed asset management agency.Those with time served at Sweden's Securum or Malaysia's Danaharta might have offered such expertise.
Another area of contention is the decision of the NAMA to underpin initial contact with it's client base with business plans.There is an air of light touch to this imo.New entrants are asked to submit a business plan,if NAMA does not like what it sees then their sanction is to ask for another business plan.This second chance is rather generous.
It would give the impression of a tougher approach if there was further documentation involved.For example. A sworn declaration of total assets held both onshore and offshore with harsh sanction (both custodial and non custodial) to apply if non disclosure of any beneficial interest held was subsequently discovered.
That is basically the McWilliams school of thought as I understand it and I would have to largely agree. There is some serious nepotism and arse saving going on that has to end now. But I think the story is more complex than that, I am sure some people that supported NAMA honestly believed it was the best route for the country. They must now be honest with themselves and the rest of us and get off this train to disaster if there is still time to.
If they will not listen to the majority of the population, the majority of economists etc in Ireland maybe they will listen to the IMF, EU and international journalists.
IT IS NOT WORKING, IT IS MAKING THINGS WORSE.
The idea that while we have 14%+ unemployment, massive emigration, mass mortgage default, less cars on the road for the first time since 1982, massive increase in self harm, a collapsing society, that our main priority would be to slash spending on everything to prop up speculative tiger era property punts is simply amazing.
We must discard all of the froth from the boom and the idiots that have not learnt from its end. If our future as a society depends on NAMA and the existing Irish banks getting their act together I doubt very much Ireland has much to offer anyone left living here to be frank.
The call on whether or not the strategy is a success is based on what the objectives were.
The primary objective was to save the banking system, which was never a given. It that is has been successful.
Another key objective was to restore credit availability. That's happening, but slowly (AIB and BOI are not zombie banks), because NAMA is spending so long going over the loans.
Another key objective was to minimise cost to the taxpayer, which will ultimately hinge on making the right call re. sustaining the liabilities or defaulting in some way. As you said yourself "The same amount of debt would have been issued just going to the banks in a different form".
I think it was probably possible to restore credit a bit faster, but in terms of the cost to the taxpayer, I think this would have been the same regardless.
A demagogue is someone who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots.
Precisely. It a means by which the developers and gamblers will avoid paying their debts as quite simply no atttempt will be made to collect them.
You are off your head. The taxpayer has been exposed to a 50 billion liability. As for credit, the word zombie is too good to explain our nations Banks, zombies rise from the dead, our Banks are lifeless.
Well at least you are honest enough to admit that the future of all the boom era banks was more important than the interests of the citizens of the country. We had no need to save much of the banking system, we could have forced a consolidation, I would have been perfectly happy with a Spainish, British or Dutch owned bank here instead of the nonsense we have.
By the way, I think some of the people in government had other priorities, like protecting some of the elite from the glaring light of publicity. In that it has also worked. This is well detailed on the other banking thread here.
Now I suggest we try again, this time put the country at the center of the policy. Use the useful bits of the banks selfishly in the national interest and cut the rest loose. Ruthlessly apply the law to those that have broken it and ensure that brand name of not one of these disgraces that call themselves bank is carried forward.
The is no reason to have 5 or 6 or even 2 state owned and funded banks. There is no reason to pay off speculative debts that predate us taking them over. There is no need for a property development lended here in the medium term. We need one state owned well capitalised and ruthlessly regulated and ruthlessly transparent bank. Even pulling that out of the fire at this stage might be too much of an ask.
Remember we have had several important banks close in the last two years here, not one of them were the ones that should have closed, the bankrupt Irish ones. Banks that are important to "ordinary people", not important to the people running the country that is. As far as I can see there is only one Irish bank that is vaguely stable, maybe two.
Is that a success?
You have one low idea of success is if you think this is working. This is a disaster of historic proportions and not just in an Irish context. There is a reason this is making the front pages of the newspapers around the world. This is Shakespean level stuff. To defend it is just unbelievable. Any member of the Green party has travelled some political distance to defend this policy.
Last edited by Expatriot; 3rd September 2010 at 08:39 AM.
If the objective of this policy was to wipe out the Greens and reduce to FF to about 30 TDs it could be judged to have worked nicely.
Exactly. The government now tend to use the line "All of the objective commentators...." to refer to members of the international press that write something they agree with. The number of objective commentators has been in serious decline of late."Anglo is still the rotting corpse in the disaster zone of Irish banking"
how lyrical, couldn't have said it better myself
no doubt Frank Fahey and his merry men will dismiss this as more uninformed comment from people who don't understand the uniqueness of Ireland
In fact the only objective commentator left in the world is RTE and it is not even that secure.
The worst type of leadership is the type that cannot admit and face mistakes. The bank scheme is a mistake, that is clear. Please face that now, you will be forced to either way anyway.
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