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  1. #511
    hollandia hollandia is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volatire View Post
    brainless mush
    Perhaps you'd like to explain that to the guys who are prepared to invest €11b in this area in Ireland? Or are they idiots as well?

    2,000 jobs to be created in wind farms by 2018 - RT News

    As I pointed out, I work in the industry. I can only assume you don't.
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  2. #512
    hollandia hollandia is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4horsemen View Post
    What security of supply would we experience during one of those very cold spells of recent winters when there was hardly a whisper of wind!
    The point is that they are linked together. The wind is going to be blowing somewhere in Europe at any given time. Wind power is not meant to be the complet answer to energy generation, it is merely part of a suite of renewable sources. Wave, Tidal and Solar are really still in their infancy.
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  3. #513
    Volatire Volatire is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollandia View Post
    As I pointed out, I work in the industry.
    clearly.
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  4. #514
    hollandia hollandia is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volatire View Post
    clearly.
    Clearly, as I have some facts at my disposal.
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  5. #515
    Volatire Volatire is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollandia View Post
    Perhaps you'd like to explain that to the guys who are prepared to invest €11b in this area in Ireland? Or are they idiots as well?

    2,000 jobs to be created in wind farms by 2018 - RT News

    As I pointed out, I work in the industry. I can only assume you don't.
    This echoes the kinds of arguments we heard near the peak of the Irish property bubble.

    Not surprising, because wind power it is another debt-fueled scam.
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  6. #516
    PLOCPLOC PLOCPLOC is offline

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    Hollandia, PlOCPLOC here, firstly I don't hate anything, that’s just not me.
    Secondly you use rhetoric a lot and have a lot of faith in your College professors and company investors and that is good. You are threatened by peak oil and war with Iran and nuclear power plants blowing up however you must realise that your professors are not infallible, capitalist investors have been more "wrong" in the last ten years than at any time in the history of the world, not about everything but maybe about this.
    Thirdly I am advocating not just for wind but for all Renewables and all energy and power a systematic approach that identifies waste and eliminates it and moves in the direction of greater efficiency of use. Not building in thirty years of wasteful technologies into the national economy that eliminates choice and competition and guarantees an enormous return to global investors. The loss is all the hills of Donegal the gain is in the factories of Germany, Sweden and China and the financial houses of London New York and Frankfurt.
    I am delighted that you have a job, I am not against the markets I am against the markets driving projects that are wasteful. The mechanism used to ensure the markets do not do that is, traditionally the risk of losing your money. The political manipulation of Energy policy has underwritten all Renewables projects in Europe over the last ten years. The only scrutiny now is via the planning system and political interference with this process has reduced the ability of communities to defend their environment on the basis of a strategic need to prepare for Peak oil, Nuclear holocaust and war with Iran. This is nonsense. This is a fit up job, IMHO.
    I have no hated for wind farms unfettered or otherwise I use wind power myself the manner in which this is being done destroys innovation, eliminates competition and reduces the chance of others getting a job in Donegal.
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  7. #517
    Pat Gill Pat Gill is offline

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    PLOCPLOC,

    I fear that your post above shows that you have not done any serious research into the history and development of the worlds energy industry.

    Even reading a little Daniel Yergin might serve as a start, Daniel became a darling of the fossil fuel industry after his book the The Prize was written and in his latest book the The Quest even he devotes a decent amount of time to the sustainable energy theme.
    We need to focus on renewables, to start with, for security reasons [and] for diversification reasons," he says. "I go back to what Winston Churchill, head of the British Royal Navy, said before World War I, when he was converting the Royal Navy from safe British coal to oil from Persia Iran and people said, 'This is really dangerous,' and he said, 'Safety in oil [lies] in variety and variety alone.' And I think that's still a fundamental starting point."

    But security doesn't only mean protecting the country's oil infrastructure from enemies it also means protecting the infrastructure from everything else that could happen.
    "You know what's going to happen, and everybody agrees on what's going to happen, and then something else happens," Yergin says. "It could be everything from political crisis, as we've seen that affect oil supply, to natural disasters to technological breakthroughs. We have a very complex energy foundation that our $14 trillion economy rests upon."

    The recent blackout in California and Arizona, for example, was the result of a chain reaction that started when an electrical worker mistakenly removed a piece of monitoring equipment. Yergin says there's an important lesson to be learned from that blackout.

    "In general with energy, given how important it is to our economy, we need to be diversified," he says. "One of the big challenges we have is the growth of demand on a global basis, and there isn't one single solution that provides the answer."
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  8. #518
    hollandia hollandia is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volatire View Post
    This echoes the kinds of arguments we heard near the peak of the Irish property bubble.

    Not surprising, because wind power it is another debt-fueled scam.
    if you could point to some evidence to back this up, I'm more than willing to listen to you.
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  9. #519
    hollandia hollandia is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by PLOCPLOC View Post
    Hollandia, PlOCPLOC here, firstly I don't hate anything, that’s just not me.
    Secondly you use rhetoric a lot and have a lot of faith in your College professors and company investors and that is good. You are threatened by peak oil and war with Iran and nuclear power plants blowing up however you must realise that your professors are not infallible, capitalist investors have been more "wrong" in the last ten years than at any time in the history of the world, not about everything but maybe about this.
    Thirdly I am advocating not just for wind but for all Renewables and all energy and power a systematic approach that identifies waste and eliminates it and moves in the direction of greater efficiency of use. Not building in thirty years of wasteful technologies into the national economy that eliminates choice and competition and guarantees an enormous return to global investors. The loss is all the hills of Donegal the gain is in the factories of Germany, Sweden and China and the financial houses of London New York and Frankfurt.
    I am delighted that you have a job, I am not against the markets I am against the markets driving projects that are wasteful. The mechanism used to ensure the markets do not do that is, traditionally the risk of losing your money. The political manipulation of Energy policy has underwritten all Renewables projects in Europe over the last ten years. The only scrutiny now is via the planning system and political interference with this process has reduced the ability of communities to defend their environment on the basis of a strategic need to prepare for Peak oil, Nuclear holocaust and war with Iran. This is nonsense. This is a fit up job, IMHO.
    I have no hated for wind farms unfettered or otherwise I use wind power myself the manner in which this is being done destroys innovation, eliminates competition and reduces the chance of others getting a job in Donegal.
    As I've said before PLOCPLOC, I don't think that the Hills of Donegal are a suitable place for a windfarm, and I'm delighted to see that you are not against windfarms at all (I apologise if I've gotten the wrong end of the stick with regard to your previous posts). I'm also delighted that you don't feel the need to insult me, either.

    Re your point about waste, can you be more specific, as I'm not sure whether you're referring to the economics of wind generation or the technology. If it is the latter, all I can say is that the technology is getting better, and will become more efficient than it is now in time. Worth pointing out that most current methods of power production are also horrible inefficient.

    Power Plant Efficiency Hasn't Improved Since 1957 - CleanTechnica

    Nuclear Power Not Efficient Enough To Replace Fossil Fuels, Study Finds

    I'm not overly concerned about nuclear plants exploding, although that would indeed be a bad thing, i'm more concerned with the possibility that human corner cutting will lead to an incident, either with the plant itself or with the waste generated.

    I don't agree with your assertion though, that it is a fit up, and would like to hear the arguments as to why you think it is. It is my opinion that peak oil is quite a few years away, my own concern is instability in the oil producing regions, and the fact is that the yanks are sitting on their own reserves, in order to profit (or just survive) when that time comes.

    Unlocking the Crude Oil Bottleneck at Cushing - Businessweek

    Nuclear Power Not Efficient Enough To Replace Fossil Fuels, Study Finds
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  10. #520
    PLOCPLOC PLOCPLOC is offline

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    hi Pat,

    Have no fear I am not sure what constitutes serious research into the history and development of worlds energy industry in your mind. I probably have answered a question or two in my time on some aspect of energy as a resource and society' need. I do pay domestic and business energy bills and study enough to make a decision to pay this or that combination of what is available to me so I am left with something to pay my taxes with at the end of the year.
    I have heard of Yergin tbf I have read about him rather than the books and the opinion I formed was not to read them, which I will review now. He has a view, IMO a very top down understanding of fuel, energy and the future of mankind that will lead inevitably to war which is the ultimate bust in the economics of boom and bust. Yergin and Gore offer no alternative in fact cannot conceive of an alternative outside of the technological master stroke and troops on the ground until that happens. IMO,Waste is the Achilles heel of the Global energy industry, the elephant in the room. What Yergin doesn't appear to get (from my position of relative ignorance) is that the solution is all around us by identifying that little bit we are wasting and eliminating it, finding tiny efficiencies and using them to get an individual advantage in your immediate environment. This is a bottom up approach to our problems but does not lend to self to the mythical stories of global adventures unlimited fortunes and regime change. Waste is the balancing component of the equation, without it our world does not work. The only thing we know about sustainability is that there is no waste in a sustainable system and no waste in nature other than
    as a determinant in survival. Projects like the wind farms are just wasteful. btw love the Winston Churchhill reference, and I agree security is in variety I just think s lot more variety than wind or fossil fuel or War or Peace for that matter.


    Hollandia, I do understand that wind turbine technology is getting better but it is still so mush less than fossil fuels technology that it should still be in the universities or making headway in specialist domestic or difficult environments, IMO. The idea to push it out into the world in an inappropriate format coincided with the explosion in financial services and unfortunately this is now our history, Perhaps I am a conspiracy theorist, but this appears to be what happened.
    Also because of the title of the thread I understood your position to be in favour of the proposition.
    also I do not see the off shore solution as the panacea many in the industry see it. The wholesale destruction of seabird colonies off out coasts may be out of sight to most out it will not be out of mind for long and could wreak the attraction of wind as a useful energy provider for many years to come. Renewable energy super, these crazy destructive projects no, I don't think so.
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