Corruption has always been in Ireland and always will be. What TI have shown over a long period of time that despite the perceptions of people that Ireland is comparably less corrupt than other countries.Originally Posted by LDF
If your son is looking for a job and you approach a friend who gives him one, Is that corrupt ?
I was interested last night to hear Vincent Browne suggest that the bankers, lawyers, politicos, etc., had as little conscience as the Irish crims who've recently been rounded up down in Marbella. Now I don't have any time for Seanie Fitz but to my knowledge he never arranged to have anyone's brains blown out, never engaged in torture, and never imported life-destroying Heroin and Cocaine into the country.
I can only half-agree with that.
You're looking at corruption from the point of view of the businessman or the private citizen. (And perhaps overlooking how many Irish businessmen have virtually asset stripped companies they control, through ludicrous director loans and other types of control fraud.)
It seems to me there's a whole netherworld of corruption, graft and embezzlement in the public and semi-state sectors. We've been given a peek into it with the FÁS and CIE scandals. We've also been given a tutorial in how those involved in wrongdoing enjoy something close to impunity, with big payoffs on retirement and - even when employed - no obligation to appear before an Oireachtas Committee. The Lost at Sea controversy sends the message that the establishment will protect its own, and there has been a remarkable united front from the permanent government before one or two Tribunals.
Then there's the DDDA (complete with disappearing minutes of meetings) and the mysterious coincidence between state agencies and the identity of their landlords.
All along, the government seem keen to cut back on FOI legislation and keep prospective whisteblowers unprotected and silent.
And how could the government crack down? Its own Ministers shovel national funds into their constituencies to help re-election chances. They appoint friends and donors to state boards. They have no legitimacy to question other forms of wrongdoing that goes on in places where the headed paper has a harp on top.
I think it would be naive to acknowledge that culture of impunity, along with those factoids, and conclude that we have anything other than a big problem in the state sector.
And it's hardly set to improve. The banks are coming. Under state ownership, there will be all sorts of opportunity for behind-the-scenes, virtually undiscoverable corruption, with or without political involvement. Already, we hear tales of insufficient loan and security documentation, but no systemic investigation into this phenomenon, despite even Anglo having a reputation for actually keeping decent records.
NAMA will operate under near-total secrecy, with only aggregate level information disclosed, and with explicit anti-whistleblower provisions! That should be deeply troubling to you, even if you accept the good intentions and motivations of those who established NAMA.
Last edited by Libero; 27th May 2010 at 10:44 AM.
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One bleedin house amongst the hundreds of thousands the FF strokers have been at since the State began, you are having a laugh, Odie.
We're still corrupt but things have improved. I'm old enough to remember when you could not get advancement in the 'semi-state sector' unless you were a card carrying FF member.
..and how do TI measure corruption? Do they come to Dublin every two years and set up a confessional box outside Doheny & Nesbitts? Do the lads line up outside and spill?
TI can only measure known instances of corruption. My previous post outlined how this government and previous FF led governments have failed to implement legislation aimed at more transparent government. In fact, their decision to curtail FOI was an attack on transparency and an aid to corruption.
Dear oh dear is that the best you can do ?
Councillor Anne Devitt of course represents Swords and well known for non declaration of income.
Lets not mention previous FG TD's and what they got up to on planning. Idea its all on party is laughable.
Ask them.
Given they have been doing it for many years then your claim of Instances of corruption is false as what Corruption instances have been highlighted recently in Zimbabwe ?????
They know where to look which is why they are a pretty good guide.
+1
The jobs for the boy culture is very pervasive in Ireland and the UK. It is not at all healthy as it discriminates against people who may be more able. It also fosters a sycophantic culture where two faced weasels prosper and the the honest and frank are disadvantaged. That is insane IMO.
It goes well beyond quangos and boards. It involves tenders for contracts even though there are rules to mitigate against such practice. Organisations who believe in looking after their fellow members on the 'charity begins at home principle' are also a problem. Understandably people will tend to employ others they know and grow up with, but when this type of ethos is extended into an organisation then the wider society has problems.
There certainly is a culture of rule avoidance, in many cases nothing wrong with that if the rules are plain stupid or divisive.
I often wonder if this culture took root because of Norman and Anglo ascendancy. Getting one over on the big house or castle is understandable, but unfortunately it now becomes a bit of a problem as that mentality in those with influence seeks to place and maintain them above the interests of everyone else. Society need to realise that the English have gone and when someone 'pulls a move' (is that the term), it is often against them.
Rule avoidance and petty corruption at the bottom I can understand as often it is what people need to do to get by. In third world countries it is an essential part of income for some as their salaries are either too low or paid irregularly.
When those in power are corrupt and seek to use their position to line their own, and associates pockets, it it is vile and should be regarded as treason. It needs to be addressed ruthlessly, and be considered as not worth the risk.
Politicians need to be made to set the standard, if they don't they need to be made an example off. The clean out needs to start at the top.
On corrupt countries generally in some you employ a local agent, and his fee needs to allow for local customs. In Ireland it is perhaps not a blatant, but in many ways that is worse, because when it is open then everyone pays, but in the nod and a wink culture those outside just do not get opportunity.
Fair points - I'd consider a lot of what happens in the public sector to be incompetence and clumsiness rather than corruption, and I've seen quite a lot of the public sector at close range. I've sat both sides of the table in public sector projects and tendering, and both processes tend to be fair and uncorrupt at the same time as being exasperatingly awkward - getting a result that's less than 90 degrees away from where you want to be pointing is something of an achievement, with the waste and the arse-covering that that inevitably implies. And there's certainly a huge amount of arse-covering, and dishonesty both petty and large in relation to it - the recognition that a project is not going to have the desired outcome leads to personal dishonesty, while the recognition that a high proportion of projects won't leads to a sort of institutional dishonesty. I wouldn't call it corruption, though. Apart from anything else some of the requirements that often lead to a tender not really being what's wanted are exactly those that are there to reduce corruption.
Failure to get or keep adequate documentation and records in the private sector isn't something I'd call corruption either. Minutes disappear both because it's nobody's particular concern that they don't, and sometimes because everyone would prefer not to remember those meetings.
So, if you were to ask me whether we have an issue with institutional opacity, dishonesty, malpractice, waste, endemic failures in documentation, and the closing of ranks and codes of omerta - absolutely. No question about it. But that's not corruption - it's incompetence, laziness, and bad practices.
The points being made about quangos as the institutionalisation of corruption I would certainly accept - we have an enormous quango sector, which controls about €13bn annually, with something like 5,000 board members, of whom about half are direct ministerial appointees. "Institutionalised clientilism" is quite a good description of that - those jobs are for supporters of the parties in government, and that's extremely unlikely to change.
Last edited by ibis; 27th May 2010 at 11:27 AM.
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