We got a 100% Mortgage because they were throwing money at us!

[grafter1]

Is it not unfair though to ask the prudent tax payer who is trying to put away his money, who didn't buy into the property circus we had going there for a while and who didn't run up debts using cards/ personal loans etc? I mean, is there no personal responsibility here at all?
I don't have any of the aforementioned debts, I am almost 30 and I feel my time is coming soon thank God when I can start to make a go at getting a home for myself at what a home should be worth - a fair price based on what it is I am buying.
I understand there will be some who will argue that I am already bailing out banks for their mistakes and all of that but as a citizen of the state, I kind of comprehend that I need the banks to function in order for my country's financial system to function to some degree so I don't get too twitchy when I think about this. However, what will really make my teeth itch is the thought of having to fork out more to ensure that friends and friends of friends who I had to explain myself to when deciding not to buy a house (while they thought they were the bees knees buying it all up without thinking for a second) get to keep theirs using my money while the whole thing becomes harder again for me because my extra cash is being used to fund a scheme that ensures I pay for someone elses personal gain.

Don't worry it won't happen.

[MPB]

Is it not unfair though to ask the prudent tax payer who is trying to put away his money, who didn't buy into the property circus we had going there for a while and who didn't run up debts using cards/ personal loans etc? I mean, is there no personal responsibility here at all?
I don't have any of the aforementioned debts, I am almost 30 and I feel my time is coming soon thank God when I can start to make a go at getting a home for myself at what a home should be worth - a fair price based on what it is I am buying.
I understand there will be some who will argue that I am already bailing out banks for their mistakes and all of that but as a citizen of the state, I kind of comprehend that I need the banks to function in order for my country's financial system to function to some degree so I don't get too twitchy when I think about this. However, what will really make my teeth itch is the thought of having to fork out more to ensure that friends and friends of friends who I had to explain myself to when deciding not to buy a house (while they thought they were the bees knees buying it all up without thinking for a second) get to keep theirs using my money while the whole thing becomes harder again for me because my extra cash is being used to fund a scheme that ensures I pay for someone elses personal gain.

If it was done properly and a little bit of creative thinking was applied it would not have to cost the taxpayer a penny.

If it is not addressed and there are defaults and repossessions you will be the proud part owner of another 100,000 houses on top of the 300,000 you already own.

Only thing is you will not be able to live in the houses you own and the Bank will not lend to you to buy a full share in one of them.

[WTTR]

Thanks feargach for responding to my last submission.

Is it not unfair though to ask the prudent tax payer who is trying to put away his money, who didn't buy into the property circus we had going there for a while and who didn't run up debts using cards/ personal loans etc? I mean, is there no personal responsibility here at all?
I don't have any of the aforementioned debts, I am almost 30 and I feel my time is coming soon thank God when I can start to make a go at getting a home for myself at what a home should be worth - a fair price based on what it is I am buying.
I understand there will be some who will argue that I am already bailing out banks for their mistakes and all of that but as a citizen of the state, I kind of comprehend that I need the banks to function in order for my country's financial system to function to some degree so I don't get too twitchy when I think about this. However, what will really make my teeth itch is the thought of having to fork out more to ensure that friends and friends of friends who I had to explain myself to when deciding not to buy a house (while they thought they were the bees knees buying it all up without thinking for a second) get to keep theirs using my money while the whole thing becomes harder again for me because my extra cash is being used to fund a scheme that ensures I pay for someone elses personal gain.

An attempt to answer your concerns is here

I see your point about not bailing out the people who were given jumbo mortgages. But you are not taking into account the very real financial harm that these mortgages are having on the real economy. I calculate that the jumbo portion is around €80bn. This amount of mortgages is not owned by the Irish financial institution who gave out the mortgages but by bank bond holders i.e. international hedge, pension and banks. The amount leaving the country as annual mortgages are repaid is c.€6bn. This money is earned by our young mortgage holders and is earned in every locality in Ireland, but when the repayments hit the local bank it disappears from Irish trade. It is not lend out again by the banks, it is not like Rates where it would go into hospitals, education, roads etc. It is GONE and once it hits our banks, it is GONE for ever! It is a loss to our economy equivalent to €1,250 for each member of our population annually. This is equivalent to annual expenditure of €6,000 for a family of four. THE REPAYMENTS ON JUMBO MORTGAGES ARE CRIPPLING OUR INTERNAL TRADE. This would be highlighted more if our government recognised the true reasons for the collapsing tax income for the exchequer instead of putting out one liners that the economy is turning. http://www.politics.ie/economy/12941...ml#post2669129

It is my contention that the annual repayment portion €6bn representing the over payment on house purchases will cripple our economy. All our economic negative indicators is directly related to this leakage out of the system of working capital. It affects every bodies lives; it is the action that knocks down the whole pack of cards. Our economy can not work with this massive hole, through which the hard income of our young men and women just flows away out of circulation. THIS SITUATION MUST BE SOLVED. It can be done in two ways

• Writing off Bank Bonds to release €80bn into circulation.
• Our government injects €80bn into the economy.

It appears that the current powers that be in the EU or USA will not countenance the writing down of Bank Bond holders. Therefore the government in some way must inject €80bn into the economy. How does the government lay its hands on this money?

• Borrow it. Interest can be paid back from the VAT generated in the economy of over €1Bn plus other taxes annually as stated in the link to my previous submission http://www.politics.ie/economy/129242-we-owe-brits-188-billion-surely-what-better-reason-default-4.html#post2658082"]http://www.politics.ie/economy/129242-we-owe-brits-188-billion-surely-what-better-reason-default-4.html#post2658082"]http://www.politics.ie/economy/129242-we-owe-brits-188-billion-surely-what-better-reason-default-4.html#post2658082
• Our government could tap the new ECB/IMF initiative by selling government bonds to the ECB.

The beauty of this initiative is that the economy not only gets an initial jolt of €80bn, but each year for as long as people are paying back a more reasonable mortgage repayment. But the fact that the Bond holders (mostly Ageing EU pension and hedge funds) would not suffer would mean that the memory threshold would be alot shorter among the Intenational Financial Buccaneers!

irishproduce. This would benefit everyone. There would be no way on this wide earth that another housing balloon would be allowed develop.

"how is it fair if I, and others like me, have to contribute to a bail out of home owners allowing them to stay in their homes while I have no home of my own and didn't contribute to this problem?" See answer http://www.politics.ie/economy/13035...ml#post2705129

[Daisy Duke]

Is it not unfair though to ask the prudent tax payer who is trying to put away his money, who didn't buy into the property circus we had going there for a while and who didn't run up debts using cards/ personal loans etc? I mean, is there no personal responsibility here at all?

In short, yes it is unfair.

If this comes to pass, you will be at a relative loss (no bailed-out roof of your own), and the heedless types who rushed to get a home will retain said bricks'n'mortar and all the family-starting benefits that go along with a permanent residence. It pays to be a Homer Simpson, not a Frank Grimes. Ha ha ha!

.

.

Just remember (because people have short memories) when the next property bubble starts occuring, buy buy buy foolishly because there will be no downside and you will not be held to account. The nasty developers/agents/ government/everything-but-the-individual will be the media scapegoats.

[WTTR]

Well I never! Support for the idea in my last submission comes from global financial giant Citi, or to be precise in its London-based European economics unit. Here is an extract from article "Nama for the little people finds backer in global giant" by John McManus in the Irish Times.

In a recent report, Euro Weekly: Sovereign Crisis – How Will Policy Respond, the Citi economists homed in on the problem of private sector debt in the peripheral euro-zone members, Ireland, Spain and Portugal (but not Greece), which is between six and four times larger than their respective Government debt.

They are talking about money borrowed by households and business during booms, fuelled by low interest rates.

They concluded that this debt had be addressed first – or at least in tandem – with any sort of solution to the Government debt crisis faced by these countries.

The reason for this, they argue, is that the measures being put in place in these countries to deal with their government debt problems – massive cutbacks in Government spending and higher taxes – could shrink their economies so drastically that a vicious cycle sets in.

More and more private sector firms and households will go bust, causing more and more problems for the banks, requiring more and more government help, requiring more and more government borrowing, warns the bank.

The solution, argues Citi, is for some sort of upfront measures to reduce the private sector debt burden and stop this cycle setting in. They go so far as to suggest some sort of European Bank Rescue fund that would fund the orderly up-front writing off by banks in peripheral countries of private sector debt; a veritable National Asset Management Agency (Nama) for the people.

It would have to be funded by the euro zone as a whole, believes Citi, and the authors of the report – which predated the €750 billion emergency measures announced two weekends ago to try to head off the sovereign debt crisis – are under no illusion as to how unlikely this might be. Nama for the little people finds backer in global giant - The Irish Times - Mon, May 17, 2010

The whole housebuilding mania should never have taken place in a country with an abundance of Third Level Business Educational Establishment. But it did! The result is that too many of our young people are in serious Negative Equity in relation to the business activity of our small economy. The jumbo part of mortgage repayments as stated previously above is crippling Internal Trade. If these people are not rescued; Ireland Inc. is sure to go under, and more cutbacks etc will hasten this process.

The Debt situation must be resolved: personal as well as banking and government debt; this can only be done by a complete change of tact on behalf of the EU.

We have got to enter a period of consolidation and drop the notion of economic growth at all cost, which sadly The Lisbon Treaty emphasises quite a lot. Our young people have got to be rescued from the noose of Negative Equity, and exposure to too much government debt. "No generation has a right to contract debts greater than can be paid off during the course of its own existence."- George Washington to James Madison 1789. Will Durant (US historian and philosopher) wrote "... civilisation is not something inborn or imperishable; it must be acquired anew by every generation. Man differs from the beast only by education, which may be defined as the technique of transmitting civilisation…Through church, or family, or school, or otherwise. There must be a unifying code.” John F Higgins.eu | the lisbon treaty

These people Negative Equity should be rescued in an orderly fashion. Otherwise, they will stop paying their mortgages in drips and drabs over the coming years. In the USA, people who can pay are gradually looking at the uselessness of their efforts and are putting a halt to repayments. We tackle this problem now, or suffer a slow spiral into decadence.

[jackryan]

The property developers got money thrown at them and took it everybody wants them to pay the price. Why not the same for those who took all the money thrown at them, as there were other people who didn't take this money and lived within their means. Anyone ever here of personal responsibility?

[WTTR]

The property developers got money thrown at them and took it everybody wants them to pay the price. Why not the same for those who took all the money thrown at them, as there were other people who didn't take this money and lived within their means. Anyone ever here of personal responsibility?

People, who did not partake in the mortgage mania, deserve credit for their business sense. But this is not enough. In this era of secularism, there is too much emphysis on individual rights. But universal rights in a broader sense entails that the attainment of these rights are shared. We all identify with sharing the National Cake; but this should also extend to speaking out against injustice which is being perpetrated on your neighbour. If a person thinks that getting a jumbo mortgage is wrong; then he has a duty to speak out against a system that condones drowning other unwary, less financial savy people in such mortgages. Not enough people spoke out, until it was too late.

The problem is that the National Cake is now in the ownership of a greatly reduced number of people. It is said that there is over €150bn in savings in Irish Banks. The problem is that it is owned by a limited number of people. These people only need to spend a small proportion as subsistence. Therefore, the Nation does not gain from this savings hoard. It is not being circulated, because the owners only need to spend a small proportion for everyday living.

The guy that shovels the coal keeps the steam train going. The youth of a country if they have spending money, speeds up the circulation of money. But the youth of Ireland spend a far too great a proportion of their salary on mortgage repayments, that leaves the country via repayments on Bank Bonds; too much coal is thrown out of the train, necessitating the train to run sluggishly. This happened because people who should have known better stayed silent and watched while one generation of Irish people were disproportionately saddled with massive debt.

Everybody in Ireland will loose; the wealthier people stand to loose the most, if the Irish Youth are not rescued from Negative Equity. It is a laugh when you hear people saying that the people in Negative Equity should have known better. What the hell is EDUCATION about, if it does not include the protection of our fellow beings from a life of financial slavery? Those who think injustice is being done should speak out! To continue to make jumbo profits from societies real imbalances, until the whole fiasco collapses, smacks of BARBARISM!

Use money to free the Irish Youth from financial slavery; this then will have the offshoot benefit of putting liquidity into Irish Internal Trade and banking system; thereby once again reducing money (the banking industry) as a means to achieve an end. What we have today is the madness of rescuing money.

The FED, EU, ECB, Leinster house are all steering us down the wrong path and have been doing so for a good solid ten years. The size of the Negative Equity situation is unique to Ireland, and our Irish Negotiators out there should be hammering home this point.