Wind power hopelessly uneconomic?

[charley]

What has that article got to do with Spirit of Ireland ?

Norway gets most of its electricity from conventional hydro power and imports.

,

Hydro has applied for a concession to build a power plant at Øyane and a pump power plant at Ilvatn, both in the Fortun Valley in Sogn.

from the article ,a pumped power plant isn't that the basis of SofI.

[fiannafailure]

,

from the article ,a pumped power plant isn't that the basis of SofI.

Yes

[windmeup]

@ Charlie
I much prefer my 1990 MK2 1.3 liter VW Golf-----it`s embodied energy is still being used, making it a super eco car. I also don`t have to go to work, to afford the cost of a new car [if that one you displayed is the Telsa, it costs over 100,000 euro ], and so I only have to drive it about 5000 miles a year, so don`t start raving about it`s CO2 output !
Oh bye the way, it cost me 75 euro and 10 euro for the Dulux paint----however I did have to spend 20 euro on the brush so that the brush marks couldnt be seen.

[fiannafailure]

@ Charlie
I much prefer my 1990 MK2 1.3 liter VW Golf-----it`s embodied energy is still being used, making it a super eco car. I also don`t have to go to work, to afford the cost of a new car [if that one you displayed is the Telsa, it costs over 100,000 euro ], and so I only have to drive it about 5000 miles a year, so don`t start raving about it`s CO2 output !
Oh bye the way, it cost me 75 euro and 10 euro for the Dulux paint----however I did have to spend 20 euro on the brush so that the brush marks couldnt be seen.

Bit flash harry with the Dulux paint weren't we.

You would have to drive it at least 80,000 miles to balance the CO2 scale with a new car.

So super eco it certainly is.

Isn't economics a dark art though, you spent €105 euro and it is now worth at least €1000 trade in value.

Embodied energy. Must have a rant about that soon

[fiannafailure]

Lets have a look at Denmark

Denmark, because of its location, is a colder place than Ireland and was hit very hard during the oil shocks of the 70's.

For those readers who are not yet past forty, this was not a good time for the first world, the cost of living almost doubled although wages didn't, in Ireland it spelt the end of a period of growth in living standards undreamt of in the early sixties, before the oil crisis, we had almost full employment, after the oil crisis, we had 20% unemployment.

People queued for hours to get 5 gallons of petrol and the country almost ground to a halt. Many factories closed or reduced to working a 3 day week, there was simply not enough energy available to power the country.

The Danish government decided never to be in that position ever again and set ambitous targets for oil independence, they decided to aggresively develop district heating systems using for example waste heat from powerplants which had to be oil independent and invested in coal burning power stations.
They decided also to incentivise energy efficiency with the imposition of an electricity tax and decided to both explore for oil and investigate renewable energy.

All of the above was done in public consultation and was endorsed by the electorate.

One of the subjects that emerged from this public consultation was that communities wanted to become involved in the ownership of this new renewable energy idea.

Money was invested in the wind turbine companies and to a very large extent they drove the development of wind energy from small turbines to the utility scale turbines we now have.

The result of this great national experiment is

1) A turbine manufacturing industry which now securely employs over 40,000 people.

2) A renewable energy research industry which employs almost 5000 more.

3) Community owned energy co op's which provide funds for locally important projects, which in turn employ thousands more.

4) Denmark has reduced its national CO2 output whilst substancially increasing its GDP, an achievement unmatched by any other country, although Spain and Portugal were close for a while, they are now begining to convert some coal stations to biomass, which will decrease their CO2 output again and in the absence of suitable sites for pumped hydro, they are also beginning to use constrained wind in those district heating systems to create steam.

5) Denmark is part of the Nord Pool electricity market along with Norway, Finland and Sweden, this market regularly delivers the lowest wholesale electricity prices in Europe, usually on the days that the wind is blowing strongly..

6) The Nord Pool uses quite a lot of derivetive type contracts, which in effect means that Denmark can at times sell wind energy to Norway, for use pumping fjord water into their conventional hydro plants, at below cost and still make money. The availability of energy has a value in contracts of this type.

All told Denmark has done very well from their experiment in renewables and the experiment just continues to give value to their economy as oil prices rise.

An employee of the Danish National Grid recently told me that Denmark would go to war to have the pumped hydro capability of Ireland, but they were a bit busy at the moment.

So in conclusion, wind energy is economically valuable if used correctly.
Intermittancy can be countered in two ways,

1) 100% back up from fast acting variable gas turbines, which negate any carbon savings and increases the cost of electricity.

2) Pumped storage, which will cost 20% of the energy but means you do not haveto build and run the gas turbines as back up, you get to keep the carbon savings and you also achieve the efficiencies of being able run conventional power plants in their most economic mode, full output, which saves even more carbon and most importantly saves money.

One more comparison.

An open cycle gas turbine has a useful life of about 20 years.

A pumped hydro station has a useful life of centuries.

[GreenIsGood]

Here are some facts about Denmark for feargach ...

http://www.cepos.dk/fileadmin/user_u...of_Denmark.pdf

Some highlights from the report ! (it even has references )

Super link, thanks energy.

A couple of other things from the report

(1) 87 euro - the cost for each ton CO2 saved by Danish wind power. The market price is only 15euro.

Welcome to the European Climate Exchange - Home

What a rip-off.

(2) Subsidies to wind are at the expense of more productive parts of the economy. The wind report shows that the wind industry has been a net destroyer of jobs in Denmark.

So that explains why half of their electric generation comes from cheap dirty coal - they are trying to offset the high cost of wind power.

Wind fanatics can't handle the truth. Dirty Denmark is not a good example. She is a horrible warning.

[wombat]

An open cycle gas turbine has a useful life of about 20 years.

A pumped hydro station has a useful life of centuries.

I'd like to know who makes pumps and turbines which will last for centuries and if they did, I would hope that technology will improve and make them obsolete

[fiannafailure]

I'd like to know who makes pumps and turbines which will last for centuries and if they did, I would hope that technology will improve and make them obsolete

wombat

A francis turbine will last on average 60 years with appropriate maintenance.

Ardnacrusha has had its turbines changed once and that was after 60 years or so of daily use.

The turbines in the Hoover dam have a similar record.

The Hoover dam is big enough to be economically re turbined every 60 or 70 years, the marginal cost of this is insignificant when measured against the output of those turbines over decades.

And those original turbines were of 1930's engineering standards.

The secret to hydro's longevity is that there is very little thermal stress experienced by the plant and the majority of the plant comprises civil engineering rather than mechanical components.

[feargach]

So another pro-wind fanatic who cannot substantiate their facts - I suppose it was a bit much to expect some half-decent references.

Keep on posting your "musings" on the benefits of wind power - I'm sure someone out there will believe you.

Whoa there nellie.

I posted some facts about Denmark. I mentioned that they were easily checked.

You said you were unable to find anything.

I responded with "what words did you use in the google search"

You did not answer. You still have not.

What were the google search words you claim to have used that failed to turn up the facts?

[wombat]

wombat

A francis turbine will last on average 60 years with appropriate maintenance.

Ardnacrusha has had its turbines changed once and that was after 60 years or so of daily use.

The turbines in the Hoover dam have a similar record.

You said centuries, not 60 years.