Energy cartels in Ireland

[fiannafailure]

[quote=sparkey321;2432153]

And as I have pointed out the whole capacity payment system is in use entirely because of the Wind energy industry.

Wind energy is unreliable and unsecure, so it cannot on its own be used to calculate grid capacity so back up sources have to be built. Then wind power has to be bought first before any other source of power so if the wind blows then expensive power stations sit idle. That is the one and only reason that capacity payments exist and you know that as well as I do.

Sparkey
I think at this stage you will agree that I do not write from the perspective of an anorak wind is God standpoint. I have already decided that you are a fair minded rational individual, so lets ratchet this debate up a level. Before forming as the Spirit of Ireland group some individuals had a conversation with the energy regulators office to outline the plan to build large scale electricity storage as an alternative to the present arrangement used to enable wind energy on the grid. The response was, but that will destroy the present market arrangement and we would have to start from scratch again.

Now that would be a major task and possibly a risk to our national energy security and so we went away and had a think.

Ireland has enormous renewable resources and the geology to support large scale storage but it also has a mature fossil fuel based electricity supply industry with a lot of new power stations so it is pretty obvious that the way to go is to export our renewables, prove they are reliable and as our thermal stations reach the end of their life maybe replace their capacity with our new natural power stations.

Now I am leaving a lot unsaid here but that is the outline of our opportunity for Ireland, build our resources in tandem with the present system, create thousands of real jobs and prove the concept without troubling the public purse.

Additional wind energy will result in higher electricity prices.

Only if we do it incorrectly

Wind energy has HUGE capital costs and as a result is expensive to produce plus it requires massive investment in the grid to allow ad hoc relatively small windfarms (25 to 200MW installed) dotted around the country to be connected which again adds to the cost.

The capital costs of onshore wind have declined massively and at least one organisation have shown that they can be brought down even more, by up to 20%. And the fuel don't forget is free.

Connecting small windfarms is expensive and the one of the lessons from the industrial revolution was that large scale equals cheaper products.

So build them big.

The wind connected to the grid the higher our electricity costs..

even you cannot deny that.

We have been doing it incorrectly, we don't have to anymore

[sparkey321]

[quote=fiannafailure;2432210]

Sparkey
I think at this stage you will agree that I do not write from the perspective of an anorak wind is God standpoint. I have already decided that you are a fair minded rational individual, so lets ratchet this debate up a level. Before forming as the Spirit of Ireland group some individuals had a conversation with the energy regulators office to outline the plan to build large scale electricity storage as an alternative to the present arrangement used to enable wind energy on the grid. The response was, but that will destroy the present market arrangement and we would have to start from scratch again.

Now that would be a major task and possibly a risk to our national energy security and so we went away and had a think.

Ireland has enormous renewable resources and the geology to support large scale storage but it also has a mature fossil fuel based electricity supply industry with a lot of new power stations so it is pretty obvious that the way to go is to export our renewables, prove they are reliable and as our thermal stations reach the end of their life maybe replace their capacity with our new natural power stations.

Now I am leaving a lot unsaid here but that is the outline of our opportunity for Ireland, build our resources in tandem with the present system, create thousands of real jobs and prove the concept without troubling the public purse.



Only if we do it incorrectly



The capital costs of onshore wind have declined massively and at least one organisation have shown that they can be brought down even more, by up to 20%. And the fuel don't forget is free.

Connecting small windfarms is expensive and the one of the lessons from the industrial revolution was that large scale equals cheaper products.

So build them big.



We have been doing it incorrectly, we don't have to anymore

Pat

My post was not aimed at SOI your proposals (if proven) will be a completely different concept to the existing (and planned wind infrastructure). The SOI concept is a completely different discussion.

The one thing that has to be accepted (and why it has never been raised int eh media is completely beyond me) is that this countries current fascination with wind and the swathes of wind farms all ready connected on planned to be connected to the grid have in reality done little or nothing to affect our carbon footprint and have increased the cost of electricity on Ireland.

Indeed if the current plan as outlined by the Minister is enacted in full including his planned multi billion complete over haul of the Irish grid to allow connections to multiple small wind farm developments will result in significant additional increases in electricity costs an require the construction of additional CGT (gas) power stations.

The entire plan we created with no consideration for the effect on the economy or the actual over all benefit to the country be it environmental or economic.

It is one of the greatest examples of form over substance of the complete blind following of a mantra to the complete exclusion of all logic.

It will be chain around the necks of the Irish people for the next 20 to 30 years.

Of all the things the green party have done (or failed to do) in power this is the one for which they can never be forgiven.

[fiannafailure]

Sparkey

You have really opened a can of worms with that post, there are billions of euros concerned here, not to mention emissions fines if we do not reach our targets.

This could get interesting.

[sparkey321]

Sparkey

You have really opened a can of worms with that post, there are billions of euros concerned here, not to mention emissions fines if we do not reach our targets.

This could get interesting.

But is there any part of it incorrect ? Any fact wrong ?

[fiannafailure]

But is there any part of it incorrect ? Any fact wrong ?

Sparkey

It may actually be worse than you outline, as I have written many times before, Ireland had very little choice at the beginning of the decade, but to chart a course broadly similar to the one taken.

We had a very real energy and competition crisis to deal with and the most effective route was to reform the market and build some gas turbine plants very fast.

However in hindsight there was one danger from this strategy, cheap and nasty are the only words to describe open cycle gas turbines, a few may have been necessary initially but now is the time to say a very loud STOP.

Heorditas, in an earlier post, expressed confidence that Ireland has nothing to fear from a reliance on gas, he may have an outside chance of being correct, but why take unnecessary risks. OFGEN the UK regulator certainly takes a different view, I have read their recent reports and the simple fact remains that a spike in the price of gas or a political problem in the unstable supply countries could trigger another recession in Ireland, we are simply too dependent on gas in this country.

The Corrib field will only be able to supply a maximum of 45% of our needs for about 15 years and here we are wasting this strategic resource by building open cycle turbines, little more than a jet engine pointed at a big kettle with lousy efficiency but earning good money.

If our economy is to be healthy it needs a sustainable and certain power supply.

[John Kalahan]

Sparkey

It may actually be worse than you outline, as I have written many times before, Ireland had very little choice at the beginning of the decade, but to chart a course broadly similar to the one taken.

We had a very real energy and competition crisis to deal with and the most effective route was to reform the market and build some gas turbine plants very fast.

However in hindsight there was one danger from this strategy, cheap and nasty are the only words to describe open cycle gas turbines, a few may have been necessary initially but now is the time to say a very loud STOP.

Heorditas, in an earlier post, expressed confidence that Ireland has nothing to fear from a reliance on gas, he may have an outside chance of being correct, but why take unnecessary risks. OFGEN the UK regulator certainly takes a different view, I have read their recent reports and the simple fact remains that a spike in the price of gas or a political problem in the unstable supply countries could trigger another recession in Ireland, we are simply too dependent on gas in this country.

The Corrib field will only be able to supply a maximum of 45% of our needs for about 15 years and here we are wasting this strategic resource by building open cycle turbines, little more than a jet engine pointed at a big kettle with lousy efficiency but earning good money.

If our economy is to be healthy it needs a sustainable and certain power supply.

There is a case for our Minister having a degree in Mechanical Engineering

[sparkey321]

There is a case for our Minister having a degree in Mechanical Engineering

I wouldn't even go that far.

There is a case for a Minister that will not just blindly follow a mantra. He has experts that have to be telling him what is happening but he is obviously not listening.

Look at his national broadband scheme. 3G ... its not even classified as broadband by the OECD but he is investing millions in the technology and calling it proof of his commitment to the knowledge economy.

The day Gormley proudly announced his use of a Prius as evidence of his green credentials proved the green love of marketing over substance.

If the man had been serious he would have gotten a mid size diesel car and generated real environmental benefits....

Would love to know the real MPG he is getting from that prius but would take a substantial bet that its far worse than that achievable by many modern diesel cars that don't have the additional environmental issues associated with manufacture and disposal of batteries.