Good luck to the PS workers.

[Gryire]

"real world" eh?

Well with a highbrow analysis like that......I'm not a bit surprised the Private Sector is in the toilet.

Why is it that when the PS want to take industrial action, the children and the sick are the first people to be hit. Sounds like bully boy tactics to me. Why not let the civil servents in government buildings be the first to take action. Why penalise the children and those in hospital first.

[inthemire]

Seems sensible. I'd also cut pensions (state and private) by 10% and cut PS wage and dole and I'd cap the PS wage at 100k.

Now we're getting somewhere.

However.................... why only cap PS wages at 100k. Why not cap say, Bankers wages (they're getting billions in public funds!) at 100k as well. Or is it because they is Private sector? What's needed here in ireland at the moment is a consensus that we are in trouble - the Dail is STILL scoring points off each other as we slide down the sewer. I see that. You see that. But sadly nobody in the Dail of any party sees that. If they did, they would have suggested some kind of consensus government while the current economic situation exists. The fact that they haven't, tells me that NOBODY in DAil Eireann is interested in solving the problems collectively.

I'm arguing here from the perspective of proportionality, fairness (in a real sense!) and a desire that Ireland DOES recover. I'm on 40k a year - i'm not in the 100k a year bracket. I was being generous with 250k.

[anchor]

Why can't you understand economics? This mess, and it is a beauty, was caused by a range of factors but mainly delusion. We were too dependent on the property sector. It was funding most of the pay increases and increases in numbers in the Public Sector for the last 10 years.

We got ahead of ourselves, now we have to claw it back.

Arguing that if we didn't have NAMA we could fund these services is like arguing that if we use the money in our savings account we can keep that 2 grand a month appartment even though we only earn 1800.

We have a structural deficit. We make less that we spend. We need to bring those to things into line. That involves spending roughly what we take in.

We take in 36 Billion. We have 36 billion to spend. We spend 54 billion. Need to remove 18 billion from somewhere. 2 thirds of the 54 billion is PS pay and Social Welfare.

Ah hell, there's no point, you just aren't going to get it. This is a multiannual issue that can't be solved by finding a few billion from any one source.

I love the way a poster, in an all knowing superior kind of way, will ask the question 'why can't you not understand economics?'
So whizz kid, riddle me this one.
If we are to get out of this mess by cutting alone, then the government can only spend 36 billion. This means that public servants and those on SW will ulitmately be required to take a 50% pay reduction on their 2008 income. In these circumstances, why would anyone become a teacher, doctor, nurse etc, when they can earn as much down the local Spar? What kind of functioning society will we then have?

[inthemire]

The State owns Anglo. The Market has no involvement.

and who decided that we should take ownership of a Zombie bank, which has no high street presence, and therefore not part of the "systemic" bank system.

Our Goverment thats who!!

And why did they do that?

Well, the Bank Enquiry will reveal all this won't it?? The "it won't be secret, it will be private" Enquiry!!

You see why PS are pissed off? Read the above. Ireland is being run by a gang of chancers and people of no ability to solve the problems their policies caused. At least some people here are coming up with ideas, none of which might see the light of day. But at least we're trying, Goddamit.

Come up with ideas, not obstacles. Anglo is nationalised - let it go to the fkn wall. The only people who want it to succeed are those with Shares or money in it (I believe TDs of many parties have shares/loans/mortgages with Anglo, hence the situation with it)

[Furze]

There is no justification for the average public service wage being 25% above the average in the private sector, there never was and previous Governments are at fault for letting that situation come to pass. The adjustment now is a tough one but it has to be done, the reality is that given their pension arrangements, they should be on 20% less than their private sector equivalent, but no one is asking them to do that, they are just being asked to bring a little reality to their pay situation.

Well said Tonic; the judiciary (including Mrs Lenihan)) and exempted senior civil servants need to take this on board. Enough fudery-dudery, there will be no justification for these exemptions in the next round of PS cuts.
We need these borrowings to further capitalise (boost share price) our banks - some pension funds have not yet exited.

[Baron von Biffo]

If we are to get out of this mess by cutting alone, then the government can only spend 36 billion. This means that public servants and those on SW will ulitmately be required to take a 50% pay reduction on their 2008 income. In these circumstances, why would anyone become a teacher, doctor, nurse etc, when they can earn as much down the local Spar? What kind of functioning society will we then have?

This is part of a process to drive down all pay in the country (except for those at the top of course.) Those workers who cheer the PS bashers are cheering their own destruction.

[inthemire]

There is no justification for the average public service wage being 25% above the average in the private sector, there never was and previous Governments are at fault for letting that situation come to pass. The adjustment now is a tough one but it has to be done, the reality is that given their pension arrangements, they should be on 20% less than their private sector equivalent, but no one is asking them to do that, they are just being asked to bring a little reality to their pay situation.

Some of us are trying to have a sincere discussion on the hole in Irelands finances. You mention 25% - from where did you get that figure.

Welcome to Public Service Benchmarking Body Website — Portal

Look at the awards. But of course, you know better than the Benchmarking group don't you.

I don't know you at all, but i'm surmising that your comment is just FF spin. Pathetic. I still don't see you bringing up any other ideas on how to solve this problem. Or is it REALLY that you think by reducing PS pay by say, even 50% per person will solve our problems. If you think that, then jesus, mary and Joseph, you're even more deluded than Mary Coughlan.

[DCon]

and who decided that we should take ownership of a Zombie bank, which has no high street presence, and therefore not part of the "systemic" bank system.

Our Goverment thats who!!

And why did they do that?

Well, the Bank Enquiry will reveal all this won't it?? The "it won't be secret, it will be private" Enquiry!!

You see why PS are pissed off? Read the above. Ireland is being run by a gang of chancers and people of no ability to solve the problems their policies caused. At least some people here are coming up with ideas, none of which might see the light of day. But at least we're trying, Goddamit.

Come up with ideas, not obstacles. Anglo is nationalised - let it go to the fkn wall. The only people who want it to succeed are those with Shares or money in it (I believe TDs of many parties have shares/loans/mortgages with Anglo, hence the situation with it)

I agree that Anglo should never have been nationalised, or included in the Guarantee. And we will never know why.

Shares in Anglo are worth 0 so not a factor. What influential people have loans that need to be hidden? That is the question.

[inthemire]

This is part of a process to drive down all pay in the country (except for those at the top of course.) Those workers who cheer the PS bashers are cheering their own destruction.

True, you can see it with what's happening over at the Mater Private, using the pay reductions in the PS to reduce pay in the Private sector, despite the fact that the Mater Private is still making profits!!

[toughbutfair]

Now we're getting somewhere.

However.................... why only cap PS wages at 100k. Why not cap say, Bankers wages (they're getting billions in public funds!) at 100k as well. Or is it because they is Private sector? What's needed here in ireland at the moment is a consensus that we are in trouble - the Dail is STILL scoring points off each other as we slide down the sewer. I see that. You see that. But sadly nobody in the Dail of any party sees that. If they did, they would have suggested some kind of consensus government while the current economic situation exists. The fact that they haven't, tells me that NOBODY in DAil Eireann is interested in solving the problems collectively.

I'm arguing here from the perspective of proportionality, fairness (in a real sense!) and a desire that Ireland DOES recover. I'm on 40k a year - i'm not in the 100k a year bracket. I was being generous with 250k.

As banks are covered by the guarantee i.e. taxpayer I'd support a cap on their wages too.