Govt to tax the lower paid and cut dole

[Clanrickard]

Following the collapse of our business, due in large part to my ill-health, my wife and I know find ourselves living off Sick Benefit. I'm still quite ill and will most likely be so for quite some time. We are managing fine. We wrote to our lenders and negotiated reduced payments/moratorium. We have been careful over the years to build up some savings. All in all we are quite comfortable and could easily swallow a 10% cut in the benefit paid to us. I cannot say that I am in favour of it, but I could handle it, and it certainly would not be enough to get me onto the streets.

You should not be cut. There are legions of dossers out there who have been scrounging off the state. They should be cut and cut big. A property tax paid by everyone with higher rates for 2nd and subsequent houses and trophy homes would raise extra taxes while the low paid would pay a rate of 10%. Expect hysterical ranting from the poverty industry including the well fed Fr. Sean Healy and the smoke salmon socialists like O'Toole and Brown.

[kerrynorth]

no the full rate of both JA and JB is the same, in the case of a single person €204.30 per week on both.

I checked and you are correct. My apologies.

[bormotello]

A property tax paid by everyone with higher rates for 2nd and subsequent houses and trophy homes would raise extra taxes

It will be political suicide for any party, which will introduce it
Too many people invested into property market

[Clanrickard]

It will be political suicide for any party, which will introduce it
Too many people invested into property market

That's why it will be a great revenue raiser. Now is the time to do it. Never waste a crisis.

[irish_bob]

You should not be cut. There are legions of dossers out there who have been scrounging off the state. They should be cut and cut big. A property tax paid by everyone with higher rates for 2nd and subsequent houses and trophy homes would raise extra taxes while the low paid would pay a rate of 10%. Expect hysterical ranting from the poverty industry including the well fed Fr. Sean Healy and the smoke salmon socialists like O'Toole and Brown.

or the leader of the bleeding heart liberal brigade , fergus ( no child should have to make do with hand me down school uniforms ) finlay , the man who the other night claimed that if the xmas bonus is not reinstated , people will go hungary this christmas , did rachel english pursue him on this idiotic statement , hardly , she sat back in awe of the mans humanity , those on social wellfare have a much bigger voice in this country than the middle class

[Bi ciuin]

I would totally agree with that. I would however go one step further. For people who have been on Unemployment Assistance for more than five years, I would not make any payment in cash, but in vouchers that could be used against such things as clothing and food but not against alcohol or cigarettes. These are people who chose not to work when there were jobs a plenty and people from all over Europe were flocking to this country. While I'm prepared to make sure they have the basics (maybe topped up by charities), I don't think they should ask the taxpayers to fund luxury items.

We need to bring more people at the lower end into the tax net, but we need there to be an incentive to work, so the gap between minimum wage and what one can get from welfare should be quite big.

There is a circa €20 gap between Jobseekers Benefit and Assistance €223 v €204 I think. But I take your point in that JA should take a greater disproportionate hit than JB.

It seems callous, but might well be the most fair system.




Trouble is, the damn rent allowance / developer dole is huge. It's a massive drain. It's hard to bridge the gap between low pay and low tax, and dole + free rent.
Becoming obvious more effort will have to be made to reduce what's paid on rent allowance, I don't know how forcefully this is being driven.

Another example of the positive benefit of high housing costs.

You should not be cut. There are legions of dossers out there who have been scrounging off the state. They should be cut and cut big. A property tax paid by everyone with higher rates for 2nd and subsequent houses and trophy homes would raise extra taxes while the low paid would pay a rate of 10%. Expect hysterical ranting from the poverty industry including the well fed Fr. Sean Healy and the smoke salmon socialists like O'Toole and Brown.

Yes there are benefit scroungers on the dole. You can clearly check the figures during the good times. Around 90,000 people sat on the dole during the boom. But instead of utilising these people are government told us that we needed immigration so we could get all those workers to do the jobs the Irish didnt want. And yet we had 90,000 on the dole!

But today we have over 400,000 people on the dole. thats over 300,000 people who have been forced onto the dole fthrough the economic turmoil caused by this government.

The dole should be cut and cut by the pathetic increase the government gave everyone in the last budget. Around 3%

But dont kids yourselves, sure Brian Cowen can spin all he wants about delfation on around 6%.

Sure thats why thousands of Irish continue in droves to shop North of the border and why retail figures are down 14%. Sure we are all having the times of our lives with all these lower prices. Of course this is just Cowen trying to justify any cuts. The sad fact is Brown Thomas maybe slashing 6% of shoes, but the likes of Penneys where the poor shop arent cutting anything of their prices.

But if you are seriously considering cutting the dole I remind you 300,000 people are claming this because they have lost their jobs through no fault of their own, and there are no further jobs out there.

Most of these people are living and hanging on. They have negotiated with banks, and money lenders. Any further cuts will reslt in them having to renegotiate. Some lenders may accept others will refuse. However what will happen for sure is the Banks will then complain to the government that they are loosing even more money. And of course the banks will need more bail outs forcing the government to tax more.

Also I read some of you are self employed. Look at your customers, how many of them are unemployed? How many of them will soon be forced to turn away from your custom and source far cheaper alternatives. And unless you have a generous amount of PRSI payed into the system you will be treated far harsher than any one else.

But of course the simplest way to get any message is to set people a test.

Sit down and look at your own finances.

Take the 204.00 per week and then subtract everything.

ESB,
TV licence,
Road Tax,
Petrol,
Food Costs,
School Fees,
Loans.
Credit Cards,

The list is endless.

Could you survive on just €204.00 per week or even less with a vouher system?


Yes the economy is broke, but do we actually fix it by letting the Rich and the wealthy get off scott free and hitting the poor?

Could you honestly live on €204.00 per week?
And then you hear the government want to cut you more?

The gut who attacked Kenny the other night was right.

We continue to pay idiots like pat kenny 600,000 per year of tax payers money and yet we talk about cutting welfare, schools and education?

TD`s cost the state €800,000 a year to be driven around?

Harney costs the state €500 a year for a haircut?

Seriously guys there are far better ways to make savings before we hit the poor and low paid.















.

[hammer]

I would be very cautious about introducing a "temporary" measure on pensions

Either the tax relief is justified now : or isn't

Assuming it is justified, here's why robbing tomorrow to pay for today is especially harmful as it would effectively cut pensions contributions:

1) Assets at nadir: many asset classes are likely priced at or near their nadir, cut contributions now means we miss buying the cheap stuff. Indeed it is an unhelpful pro-cyclical philsophy: exit market when low... buy lots when high. Will end up meaning pensions get very poor returns
2) Demographic problems: Our demographic situation is worsening.... children falling off.... and adults living longer. Good private pensions are more important now than ever

Also btw some controlled deflation is what we need

cYp

We are in a hole now. No dont need to worry about 20 years time if we are bankrupt now. Adjustments can be harsh now, until we get some sort of leadership that will take us from this deep hole in 3/4/5/6/ years time.

[Cassandra Syndrome]

Looks like the budgetary adjustment will be to tax the lower paid more, cut dole, and cut PS pay (especially the lower paid)

Personally I'm happy with this adjustment as it is both necessary and fair.... however is it politically possible ?



Given that the median earner only pays 4% tax rate this is fair, for analysis of Irish taxation see

Ronan Lyons- Tax quiz and Are Irish workers undertaxed?

cYp

More insanity. Ever hear of the Laffer Curve. All the last tax levies have proven that we can no longer increase taxes as it is decreasing people's disposable income and consumption is shrinking.

The Marginal Rate to consume is higher under 30,000 than than money earned over that which tends to be saved or invested on various foreign portfolios Taxing incomes underneath that figure ruins purchasing power and is a hindrance to the multiplier.

Do you work for the Department of Finance by any chance?