Limited Gains from Taxing the Rich

[Dreaded_Estate]

why not - the government was quick enough to do it when Anglo threatened to collapse the banking system. Better to break the law than break the poor.

So what - capitalism will happily change laws when it needs to and break all the laws it wants to when it feels necessary. Dumping 10,000 workers on the dole simply to increase profits does not give anyone the authority to claim any rights.

You would be surprised

firstly, with a planned economy we wouldn't need to be handing billions over to MNC's and secondly we can build and make any or all of the goods being produced here by MNC's if we want.

Very simply - we produce for need not profit and we would not have to deal with a crisis like we are currently experiencing.

Given the mess we are in - capitalism clearly isn't working - so we couldn't do a worse job.

I would be very surprised. IMO we would face some very serious sanctions and fines. We would see massive duties and levies imposed on everything we attempted to export.
No one would buy from us because the levies would price us out of every market!

And even if we some how managed to avoid the sanctions and duties , which we wouldn't. We would still be more expensive than our international competitors who would be setup in places like Poland and actually understand how to run an international computer manufacture.

Our government's have a terrible track record of running the economy. As demonstrated by our constant drift from bump to bust. Giving them even more control of the economy would be a disaster.

Do you think the average person would be better under a system where we made everything for our own needs?

[politicaldonations]

why not - the government was quick enough to do it when Anglo threatened to collapse the banking system. Better to break the law than break the poor.


So what - capitalism will happily change laws when it needs to and break all the laws it wants to when it feels necessary. Dumping 10,000 workers on the dole simply to increase profits does not give anyone the authority to claim any rights.


You would be surprised


firstly, with a planned economy we wouldn't need to be handing billions over to MNC's and secondly we can build and make any or all of the goods being produced here by MNC's if we want.


Very simply - we produce for need not profit and we would not have to deal with a crisis like we are currently experiencing.

Given the mess we are in - capitalism clearly isn't working - so we couldn't do a worse job.

Capitalism like any system evolves and develops regulatroy mechanisms etc. The global economy is recovering and the VAST VAST VAST majority of planets residents want this "failed" system. Get a life ya loola.

[lobby]

Excuse me for proposing a solution that is capable of ensuring that half the planet doesn't go to bed hungry tonight - that hundreds of millions of people don't wake up tomorrow with someone shooting at them - that doesn't allow a tiny percentage of the population to operate control and manipulate society so that the can accumulate more wealth (even though they have so much at the moment they couldn't spend it in a thousand lifetimes if they tried) - Personally I perfer a society where people have enough food on the table - a roof over their head - a job to go to in the morning - a decent education system for their children and a proper health service to treat them when they are will - enough income to live a decent life and not have to worry about the next economic collapse caused by the boom bust cycle of capitalism.

I'll take socialism please - no other alternatives will work.

Oh for Gods sake, what absolute rubbish.

Why would we need a good education system? By your reckoning everyone will have "food on the table, a roof over their head etc." so why would anyone bother trying to educate themselves?

And the greed that exists (some might say drives) capitalism will still be there. So the socialist system will be corrupted, just as happened in every single socialist country to date.

I'm all for new ideas, and ways to improve, but socialism is failed rubbish.

[irish_bob]

im begining to think that red giant is lecturer ciaran allen , that odious cretin who despite having no elected mandate of any kind regulary has the audacity to call on the state to confiscate private wealth on a mass scale

btw giant , you commented earlier how capitalism is about greed , people are about greed , removing greed from people is about as likely as removing lust from people , communists cant seem to acknowlege human nature , thier denial of it is the biggest flaw in thier whole idealogy

[skev]

Typical - please, please, please don't tax the rich - otherwise they will all leave us and they will put that factory in the suitcase with them.

I hope they're not flying Ryanair - the luggage allowance will kill them.

A 4% wealth tax on the country's 33,000 millionaires would yield more than Brutal Brian wants to hack out of the economy.

Any of them that want to leave I would tell them don't let the door hit you on the a*se on the way out - and - we'll be sequestering your assets and freezing you bank accounts.

Why how much are these millionaires going to make this year?

I would imagine not that much if they made their money from property during the boom.

Do you think we should tax people for having a lot of assets?

[skev]

"Encouraging" business was what got us into this bloody mess - much better idea to plan the economy - it would create more jobs at higher pay and produce the jobs and services needed - rather than the bubble economy we got from 'encouraging' business.

Typical - please, please, please don't tax the rich - otherwise they will all leave us and they will put that factory in the suitcase with them.

I hope they're not flying Ryanair - the luggage allowance will kill them.

A 4% wealth tax on the country's 33,000 millionaires would yield more than Brutal Brian wants to hack out of the economy.

Any of them that want to leave I would tell them don't let the door hit you on the a*se on the way out - and - we'll be sequestering your assets and freezing you bank accounts.

NO. Encouraging business is a good thing. You can crticise how we encouraged it but to criticise the encouragement of business overall is just foolish.

In my opinion what got us into this mess was cutting taxes. We cut them so much that when we got into trouble we have no way of encouraging people to spend which would encourage the economy to grow. If we were able to cut PAYE now we could stimulate our economy but that isn't possible.

Also things like the Special Savings scheme were an absolute joke. I didn't do it because I was so against it. Every one of my friends did it and cashed it in to put a deposit on a house.The demand for houses pushed house prices up. This pushed inflation up as did the lowering taxes. People just had too much money. Inflation going up caused the government to raise Public Sector salaries way to high. Now there was even more money floating around. Lots of money and plenty of credit from foolish banks

Then suddenly the economy crashes. What will we do?

Lower taxes to stimulate spending? Oh no we did that when we didn't need to. OOPS

Dip into our reserves to spend on public works to provide employment? OOPS we have no reserves. We gave away all the money.

Encourage business? HELL NO! the socialists and Jolly Red won't like that.

Tell me Jolly Red what can we do? What jobs would you create if we are not going to encourage business?

Who's going to pay for them?

What would this country be without the businesses we encouraged to come here. Intel, Hewlett Packard, Pfizer, etc etc.

You think house prices are bad now. IF Intel and Hewlett Packard pulled out you wouldn't be able to give away houses in Lucan, Leixlip Celbridge or any of the surrounding areas.

Maybe we should start taxing the horse industry. I bet you'd like that. Then it would go the same way as the film industry did when we ended their tax breaks. TO NEW ZEALAND!

Socialists. Trade Unionists. I've never crossed a picket in my life but you are the most selfish shower that exists. You moan about "millionaires" whilst ignoring that it is they who create wealth for many people not just themselves but you are unwilling to take pay cuts when we all need to take a pay cut.

The very word SOCIALIST implies looking after your fellow man or woman but all you guys care about is yourselves. Give up the strikes. Give up the b1tching and give up the moaning. Work a few extra hours per week and take a pay cut. Thats what I do during bad economic times. But then maybe I'm a conservative. I don't think just about myself.

Oh yeah just to let you know. In general a millionaire wouldn't have millions in his bank accounts. Normally their wealth is calculated on their assets ie shares in their companies that employ people and contribute to the economy or in property which is not making them any money today. So what are you going to sequester? Their companies. Turn them into Public Sector companies? That'd work well.

Or their property? Cause I believe that we're already doing that with NAMA.

[patslatt]

The Irish Economy Blog Archive Limited Gains from Taxing the Rich

While the gains may be somewhat limited I think a top rate of tax at 65% should be introduced.

But Karl Whelan is correct, there aren't massive gains to be got.

Eat your heart out with envy and jealousy.

Whelan's analysis should estimate how those subject to confiscatory tax would react,by moving assets abroad,emigrating,setting up time wasting elaborate tax shelters and working less,and how the tax will deter inward investment and company startups.

Finance officials argue that the loss of one very high income taxpayer would have to be made up increasing tax on around 20 low income taxpayers,because high income taxpayers pay most of the income tax.

[Garland Names the Planets]

*Rubs his temples furiously*

Ok why can nobody see this. From 1997 - 2003 Charlie McCreevy cut labour & corporate taxes and did so by moving the exchequer funding to the buying and selling of properties by means of Capital Gains Tax and Stamp Duty which were almost entirely based on the the valuations of the properties being bought and sold by people to each other in that era which has now collapsed. The man was an accountant. He never thought passed the next year. Cowen was a lawyer, he sat on his hands and tinkered with the rate bands in McCreevy's system because he had not the knowledge to do anything else. Lenihan, well who knows what's going on in his head

[myksav]

don't have a despite for it - but i do dispise it and what it does to humanity.


capitalists only take account of how consequences affect their pocket and when it does affect their pocket how they can unload the affect to working class people. Bad consequences for the capitalist is working class people fighting back and refusing to let the boss sh*t on them.


Capitalism was a step forward over feudalism - just as feudalism was a step forward over slave society - but slave society could not be replace by feudalism until it could no longer develop society - feudalism could not be replaced by capitalism until it was so rotten that there was no alternative to replace it. Capitalism has served its purpose - its time to mvoe on - capitalism can no longer deveop society in a progressive fashion - it is stagnant and the scale of economic growth has been consistantly declining since the 1950's - the only thing that could possibly save worldwide capitalism from a future of ongoing economic stagnation is a catharsis on the scale of a world war where everything would be destroyed.


capitalism is greed - it needs greed - it generates greed - it promotes greed - without greed it would not exist.


Excuse me for proposing a solution that is capable of ensuring that half the planet doesn't go to bed hungry tonight - that hundreds of millions of people don't wake up tomorrow with someone shooting at them - that doesn't allow a tiny percentage of the population to operate control and manipulate society so that the can accumulate more wealth (even though they have so much at the moment they couldn't spend it in a thousand lifetimes if they tried) - Personally I perfer a society where people have enough food on the table - a roof over their head - a job to go to in the morning - a decent education system for their children and a proper health service to treat them when they are will - enough income to live a decent life and not have to worry about the next economic collapse caused by the boom bust cycle of capitalism.

I'll take socialism please - no other alternatives will work.

Despite for something MEANS despising that something.

And you mentioned socialism. Which has failed in basically any major country that tried it. Even China is minimising its socialistic system for a more capitalist system. Any countries which have maintained a socialistic system is basically pis-poor with a rubbish ecomony.

Fail.

[JollyRedGiant]

Why how much are these millionaires going to make this year?

most of them are going to make quite a lot.

I would imagine not that much if they made their money from property during the boom.

Between 2006-2008 - 450 people made €41billion - €11billion of that came from property speculation - €30billion came from other sources.

Do you think we should tax people for having a lot of assets?

Yes - since 1987 workers wages have been capped by national wages agreements - profits were not capped. In 1987 wages accounted for 57% of national income - profits accounted for 43%. In 2008 the situation had reversed 60% went on profits and 40% on wages (despite the fact we had over 1 million more people in the workforce.

Wealth tax is a normal part of the tax system - the only people who object are those who have it (or those who have a pipedream that they might someday).

The last 20 years has seen a massive transfer of wealth from working class people and their families to the wealthiest in Irish society who make up a tiny fraction of the population. Now that their system is in crisis they expect working class people to carry the can - while they don't expect to pay a penny.

Capitalism like any system evolves and develops regulatroy mechanisms etc. The global economy is recovering

Element of wishful thinking here - we are NEVER going to see the likes of the Celtic Tiger again. At best the world economy will bounce along the bottom of the bust for the next decade - the more likely prospect is a double-dip recession.

the VAST VAST VAST majority of planets residents want this "failed" system.

And your evidence for this is what? Have you asked the 4billion people who live on less than $2 a day if they want capitalism?

Tell me Jolly Red what can we do? What jobs would you create if we are not going to encourage business?

First thing we can do is stop the job losses and wage cuts that are occurring -
1. Introduce a 4% wealth tax to cover the €4 billion hatchet job of Cowen and Lenihan.
2. Nationalise any company threatening wage cuts (most of them are actually making profits)
3. Nationalise any company that threatens job losses (same as above).
4. Nationalise any company that closes down.
5. Nationalise all the banks and extend credit for providing jobs not for speculation.

Straight away this would stop increases in unemployment - and as a consequence increases in social welfare spending.

Who's going to pay for them?

The people who have the money.

What would this country be without the businesses we encouraged to come here. Intel, Hewlett Packard, Pfizer, etc etc.

What is Limerick like now without Dell? We are no longer in a position to conduct business as we did in the past. HP and Pfizer are here - if they want to move we take them into public ownership.

Maybe we should start taxing the horse industry. I bet you'd like that.

I like the pun - yes we should - at the very least we should stop the grants and tax breaks for an industry that has made a tiny number of people very very wealthy and is notorious for paying its workers very badly.

You moan about "millionaires" whilst ignoring that it is they who create wealth for many people not just themselves but you are unwilling to take pay cuts when we all need to take a pay cut.

Millionaires never made a penny for anyone but themselves - they paid the lowest possible wage they could get away with and now that their profits and welath are being threatened they want workers to accept job cuts and lower wages. If they are unable or unwilling to run the job with lower profits while protecting jobs and wages, then the working class can do it for them.

The very word SOCIALIST implies looking after your fellow man or woman but all you guys care about is yourselves.

Actually the word SOCIALIST implies looking after working class people. The wealthy in society already have several political parties, the state apparatus, the media etc. to look after their interests.

Work a few extra hours per week and take a pay cut. Thats what I do during bad economic times. But then maybe I'm a conservative. I don't think just about myself.

No you are a fool - if you were thinking about your fellow workers you would be on the streets and taking part in strikes in order to defend the jobs and livelihoods of your fellow workers. The only person benifiting from you working longer hours for less money is your boss.

In general a millionaire wouldn't have millions in his bank accounts. Normally their wealth is calculated on their assets ie shares in their companies that employ people and contribute to the economy or in property which is not making them any money today. So what are you going to sequester? Their companies. Turn them into Public Sector companies? That'd work well.

Yes - take them into public ownership and run them, not like capitalist businesses with a top heavy management and outlandish salaries like they are now - but under democratic workers management where decisions are made in the interests of the working class people of this country, not in the interests of a tiny handful of extremely welathy individuals.

Or their property? Cause I believe that we're already doing that with NAMA.

I am sure they will still keep their hands on a substantial amount of it. NAMA will actually be taking over a tiny proportion of the property that is profitable in the state. NAMA will get the empty housing estates on the outskirts of small rural towns and these massive retail parks and business parks that lie empty on every main road in the county. Down the road from me there is a massive warehousing complex than lies empty and two miles after that a massive retail park that lies empty except for one of the multiples selling groceries - this is NAMA's job bail out the bankers, spivs, developers and speculators and takeover worthless buildings and tracts of re-zoned bogland..