Unions want us to continue to borrow

[smitchy2]

I think it is become clear now that the unions position is that it is in order to borrow at this level until 2013.
Mr. Begg seems to think that the national debt is now only 43% of GDP.
This is indeed the figure quoted by the NTMA for the end of 2008. (Based on €50.4bn of govt debt and an assumed GDP figure of €117bn).

http://www.ntma.ie/NationalDebt/levelOfDebt.php

Government Debt by the end of June was €65bn. This will increase to c€73bn by the end of 2009.
With a presumed decrease in GDP this year of 10% (to €106bn).
This will leave of Debt to GDP at 69%.

By the end of next year, if making no changes- Debt will increase to €95bn and GDP will fall to €104bn moving us to 91%.

This is before any kind of NAMA, bad bank or nationalisation debt is taking into account, which takes us into the basket case zone.

If we don’t act now on our deficit, we will be paying it back with interest for generations and this will effect the ability of the country to provide public services.

[sharper]

Based on what the unions and PS folks are saying here there appears to be a perception of a chunk of hidden wealth somewhere that the government can tax/seize to make up the deficit. Nobody seems willing to lay out the figures though.

[Conor]

This is before any kind of NAMA, bad bank or nationalisation debt is taking into account, which takes us into the basket case zone.

I understood the NAMA debt to be off-balance sheet.

[hopi watcher]

I think it is become clear now that the unions position is that it is in order to borrow at this level until 2013.
Mr. Begg seems to think that the national debt is now only 43% of GDP.
This is indeed the figure quoted by the NTMA for the end of 2008. (Based on €50.4bn of govt debt and an assumed GDP figure of €117bn).

NTMA - National Debt - Level of Debt

Government Debt by the end of June was €65bn. This will increase to c€73bn by the end of 2009.
With a presumed decrease in GDP this year of 10% (to €106bn).
This will leave of Debt to GDP at 69%.

By the end of next year, if making no changes- Debt will increase to €95bn and GDP will fall to €104bn moving us to 91%.

This is before any kind of NAMA, bad bank or nationalisation debt is taking into account, which takes us into the basket case zone.

If we don’t act now on our deficit, we will be paying it back with interest for generations and this will effect the ability of the country to provide public services.

Not so, what the unions have repeatedly stated is that the problem must be addressed by fair means. Hammering the less well of while leaving the wealthy untouched is hardly that. What the govenrment should be doing is outlining more honestly what the actual position is, we still don't know btw, and then putting in place a plan of recovery that sees the most vulnerable protected and those that can afford it, carrying that lions share of the burden. When that is done in an open and transparent way, the govenrment will be in a psition to demand, and get the support, of all the people. It ain't rocket ecience.

[HarshBuzz]

Based on what the unions and PS folks are saying here there appears to be a perception of a chunk of hidden wealth somewhere that the government can tax/seize to make up the deficit. Nobody seems willing to lay out the figures though.

they appear to labour under the delusion that hundreds of thousands of millionaires exist and have substantial sums of cash, not to mention incomes of at least half a million a year. If you just tax them at, say, 85%, then the PS party bus can keep on rockin'

[HarshBuzz]

I understood the NAMA debt to be off-balance sheet.

it depends what you understand by Off Balance Sheet (we could have a lovely arcane discussion of accounting standards here ).

the debt issued to fund NAMA is certainly real (depsite the fact that it won't be traded on the open market) and when NAMA starts realising its losses, they will be crystallised onto the national BS and we will have to fund that.

let's look at my favourite graph again, shall we? it all appeared to be going so well...(although it was criminal that we didn't actually become a creditor nation over the years of the Celtic Tiger)

[Foghorn]

they appear to labour under the delusion that hundreds of thousands of millionaires exist and have substantial sums of cash, not to mention incomes of at least half a million a year. If you just tax them at, say, 85%, then the PS party bus can keep on rockin'

I agree. And given that they had their portion of the rewards they should perhaps share in their portion of the responsibility. In the words of Oliver Hardy "This is another fine mess you've got us in to"!

If they have a problem with fairness then they ought to articulate it.

BTW, these are the same Unions that agreed under the terms of partnership a 10.7% increase in Public Spending over just 27 months (Toward 2016). Were they and the Govt smoking dope when they wrote this?

[sharper]

I understood the NAMA debt to be off-balance sheet.

It doesn't matter what accounting trick you try to use, the bond markets aren't quite dumb enough to ignore €54bn of debt under a different name.

[mmrebel]

Unions economic policy

[ballot stuffer]

Not so, what the unions have repeatedly stated is that the problem must be addressed by fair means.

Fair to them is hammering the productive side of the economy to keep their own pay and conditions.