The €22bn hole

[Watcher1]

The key is to get money moving and that is best done by hard redistribution. I would introduce two new rates of 55% and 65% to start with. All windfall income, that is gains from non-productive activity, would be taxed at 75%. Putting money into the hands of those at the lower end of the socio-economic ladder will see that money moved quickly into the economy thereby boosting other activity. We must get the money that is there working and stop the greed merchants hoarding it.
Cutting welfare and putting people on the dole would be disasterous and would place enormous strain on social order. Today, people will not just roll over and accept hardship, while a chosen elite continue go on their merry way.

So you would completely ignore 38% of the working population who dont contribute anything to the tax pool. All you are intent on is sticking it to the so called high earners (whom you probably have not defined either I bet). Neither do you mention the cut off points at which your new rates kick in.

All your above post adds up to is more liberal left commie type rubbish with little to no thought behind it, just mad mantra bullsh1t.

[Watcher1]

The rates would need to be determined following indepth study of the position that optains.
Non-productive relates to all income that derives from an action that simply produces nothing. Such a definition was used for a period in the US. When Elvis Presley started out, all his taxable income attracted a rate of 95%. Another example woould be the case where Tony O'Reilly, shortly after been given the license to explore for gas/oil off the Cork/Kerry coast, sold shares in the holding company to a Texan company for a reported $20 million dollars. That is the type of income that should attract a very high rate of tax. If such a rate had existed during the bubble it would have had a controlling impact on the speculating that went on with land dealing etc

Hopi, I agree with the point you almost made regarding the rates of tax on certain transactions during our bubble period where development lands changed hands for 1% tax being the stamp duty on the shares of the company that owned the land - companies were incorporated for the sole purpose of avoiding the capital gains tax (or was it capital acquisition?) of 20% I think is the rate.

What you fail to mention or take account of was in the 80's and early 90's, when the country was down in the kind of dumps we are currently experiencing, such taxes were 40%+. It was only when these rates reduced that proper activity levels increased and more tax revenues were derived from the lower tax rates.

Not all low(er) taxes are evil.

[hopi watcher]

So you would completely ignore 38% of the working population who dont contribute anything to the tax pool. All you are intent on is sticking it to the so called high earners (whom you probably have not defined either I bet). Neither do you mention the cut off points at which your new rates kick in.

All your above post adds up to is more liberal left commie type rubbish with little to no thought behind it, just mad mantra bullsh1t.

Hit a nerve have we? All citizens contribute to the tax take, income tax, to which you are referring, only contributes around 30% of the total. As stated, the cut off points etc. can only be established after detailed study, no one here could undertake that, not even the boys in the IBEC bunker!!!
Regarding it being 'liberal left commie rubbish' or not, what we do know as fact is that the current situation has been a bit of a failure, or haven't you noticed yet?

[hopi watcher]

Hopi, I agree with the point you almost made regarding the rates of tax on certain transactions during our bubble period where development lands changed hands for 1% tax being the stamp duty on the shares of the company that owned the land - companies were incorporated for the sole purpose of avoiding the capital gains tax (or was it capital acquisition?) of 20% I think is the rate.

What you fail to mention or take account of was in the 80's and early 90's, when the country was down in the kind of dumps we are currently experiencing, such taxes were 40%+. It was only when these rates reduced that proper activity levels increased and more tax revenues were derived from the lower tax rates.

Not all low(er) taxes are evil.

But it led to the mess, remove the blinkers FFS.

[DCon]

Hit a nerve have we? All citizens contribute to the tax take, income tax, to which you are referring, only contributes around 30% of the total. As stated, the cut off points etc. can only be established after detailed study, no one here could undertake that, not even the boys in the IBEC bunker!!!

Correction: Public Servants and Social welfare recipients do not contribute to the tax take through consumption.

As their wages/benefits are from the tax take, the payment of VAT (and income tax) is just a return to the source of their income. It is not a contribution to the net tax figure.

[Kevin Doyle]

Correction: Public Servants and Social welfare recipients do not contribute to the tax take through consumption.

As their wages/benefits are from the tax take, the payment of VAT (and income tax) is just a return to the source of their income. It is not a contribution to the net tax figure.

If thats the case in real terms the PS wage bill is only 11 billion and the SW bill is only 13.

Well done, with a bit of smartassness you've significantly reduced the deficit.

No need for those pay cuts or SW cuts after all.

[hopi watcher]

Correction: Public Servants and Social welfare recipients do not contribute to the tax take through consumption.

As their wages/benefits are from the tax take, the payment of VAT (and income tax) is just a return to the source of their income. It is not a contribution to the net tax figure.

Do you really believe this statement? Simple example.
PS worker on a rate of $10 per hour, tax liability $4, net income €6
Non PS worker on a rate of €10 per hour, tax liability €4, net income€6.

If want to believe that PS workers €4 is not a contribuiton to net tax take, off you go. It seems that a few around here revel in living in cloud cuckoo land.

[atlantic]

Cael wants to redistribute the land but in fairness he comes up with some good points.Hopi just doesn't want anyone to have a € believes that the people who graffed hard creates jobs make a few lids, are leeches on society !!!!!!.Hopi wants everbody equally poor and miserable.

by hopiwatchers insane wealth destruction tax system the 'never worked live off the system animals' would be more 'wealthy' than our Entrepreneurs.

[hopi watcher]

Cael wants to redistribute the land but in fairness he comes up with some good points.Hopi just doesn't want anyone to have a € believes that the people who graffed hard creates jobs make a few lids, are leeches on society !!!!!!.Hopi wants everbody equally poor and miserable.

More putting words into people's mouths.You actually are now saying that you can read other peoples' minds!!!
Have you nothing of any significance to say? What are doing here?
So the bamnkers 'grafted hard'? So much for your sense of values.

[DCon]

Do you really believe this statement? Simple example.
PS worker on a rate of $10 per hour, tax liability $4, net income €6
Non PS worker on a rate of €10 per hour, tax liability €4, net income€6.

If want to believe that PS workers €4 is not a contribuiton to net tax take, off you go. It seems that a few around here revel in living in cloud cuckoo land.

Lets say in the above example that the government has €20

It pays the PS worker €10 and now has €10 left. The PS worker pays €4 in tax so the government now has €14. the PS worker has €6, so the economy has the same €20 it started with

Now, the government still has €20 but a foreign firm pays somebody €10 to do some work. They pay the non PS worker €10 for this. the government tax the worker €4.

Now, the government has €24, the non PS worker has €6.

Is that simple enough for you?