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Thread: Dublin property prices falling by €4,500 a month

  1. #891
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    Morgan Kelly - legend, tells it as it is.....


    The Irish Housing Bubble: Chronicle of a Death
    Foretold
    Morgan Kelly
    ?
    April 11, 2007
    Now that “For Sale” signs have become permanent fixtures on the landscape,
    and even the dimmest paid cheerleaders for the property sect or have given up pre-
    tending that there is going to be a soft landing, it is worth asking how far house
    prices are likely to fall, and what effect this will have on the Irish economy.
    It is hard to be optimistic. Based on the experience of other economies that
    have had similar bubbles, we can expect the real price of houses to fall by around
    half over the next 8 or 9 years, and possibly by a good deal more . This fall in house
    prices will cause a sudden collapse in house building activity which now accounts
    directly for an astonishing 15 per cent of our national income.
    First we need to dispose of the transparent myth that the boom in Irish house
    prices simply reflects the strong fundamentals in the market . To see that this is
    false we need only look at what has happened to rents.
    If fundamental demand for housing were strong we should have seen rents rise
    along with house prices. In fact, while real house prices doubled since 2000, rents
    have remained more or less static. You can rent a million Euro house in Dublin for
    well under e2,000 a month. Were you foolish enough to buy it, the interest alone
    on the mortgage would cost over e4,000.
    The average rent to price ratio in Dublin has fallen to around 4 per cent—a
    low return on what people are starting to discover to be an ass et with considerable
    fundamental risk—and barely above 1 per cent at the top of the market. This recalls
    price-earnings ratios at the peak of the dotcom bubble. And rents are likely to fall
    as vendors realise they are unlikely to sell anytime soon and start to let properties
    to pay some of the mortgage.
    By how much can we expect house prices to fall? Looking at 40 housing booms
    and busts since 1970, I found a remarkably consistent pattern across very different
    economies (you can download the report, “On the likely extent of falls in Irish
    house prices”, from my website in UCD). Adjusting for inflati on, housing markets
    typically give up 70 per cent of what they gained in a boom during the subsequent
    bust.
    For Ireland, where real house prices in the mid-1990s were on ly 30 per cent of
    what they are now, this would imply a fall in the range of 40 to 60 per cent. This is
    a prediction for average prices: typically properties at th e bottom, and, especially,
    the top of the market fare much worse than those in the middle.
    Falls of this magnitude are far from unprecedented internat ionally: both the
    Netherlands in the 1980s and Finland in the early 1990s saw real house prices fall
    by half.
    Unlike stock price crashes, housing busts are extremely pro longed: more like
    the flooding of New Orleans than a tsunami. And just as Republican officials kept
    denying there was anything wrong until the water was up to their necks, we can
    start looking forward to estate agents telling us that the worst is over, a necessary
    correction to an overheated market has taken place, there ha s never been a better
    time to buy, and so on until most of them go out of business.
    Busts of the magnitude that we are beginning to experience typically last 8 to
    10 years. Assuming our inflation rate goes back to around 2 per cent, a halving of
    real house prices would entail annual falls in the selling price of houses of around
    6 per cent, lasting for about 9 years.
    Aside from the anguish that will be endured by those who have been conned
    into mortgaging their lives away to buy houses at grotesquel y inflated prices, the
    macroeconomic reason to be terrified of a housing crash is its effect on the building
    industry. Most economies, including Ireland until a few years ago, get only around
    5 per cent of their income from building houses: less than households spend on
    recreation.
    In Ireland now, house building accounts for almost one sixth of national in-
    come. And that is not counting the jobs processing new mortgages, insurance and
    title transfers; retailing furniture and carpets; or adver tising houses; or the indirect
    effects of these incomes on the rest of the economy.
    When house building returns to its equilibrium level of 4 to 5 per cent of in-
    come, the effect on employment and government finances can only be catastrophic.
    And building contractions are sudden: in Arizona, whose bui lding boom looks
    eerily similar to ours, between May and November last year housing starts fell
    from 8,000 per month to 3,000.
    Given the recent 25 per cent fall in planning applications, we can expect large
    falls in building employment once current projects are completed. Contrary to
    popular belief, over 80 per cent of building workers are Iris h: they are not going to
    get on a plane to Gdansk and disappear from the unemployment statistics.
    The fact that the Irish economy has come to be based on building houses for all
    the people that have got jobs building houses means that our estimate of a fifty per
    cent fall in house prices may be unduly optimistic. Other economies that experi-
    enced large housing bubbles had stocks of houses that were more or less fixed. By
    contrast, we have 15 per cent of our housing units lying empty, bought by specula-
    tors to realize capital gains, while the supply of housing is growing at around 5 per
    cent a year.
    The supply of houses on sale is likely to explode as speculators scramble to
    unload the 210,000 empty units they are holding, along with the 80,000 or so new
    houses that will be built this year. As this enormous supply collides with falling
    demand caused by expectations of further price falls, and falling employment in
    building, Ireland may be heading for a fall in house price that is without interna-
    tional precedent.
    Along with our sharp fall in competitiveness and the structural problems of the
    IT and pharmaceutical sectors, the likelihood of further ri ses in interest rates, and
    the possibility of a hard landing for the US economy, the Irish economy is sailing
    blithely into something that is starting to look like a perfect storm.

  2. #892
    Politics.ie Regular Akrasia's Avatar
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    None of that is rocket science. It should have been blatantly obvious to anyone over the last 5 years that the market was unsustainable.

    Of course greed will always triumph over sense, especially when the Vested Interests are so powerful and so easily corrupted.
    Actual morality is doing what is right regardless of what you're told. Religious morality is doing what you're told, regardless of if it's right.

  3. #893
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akrasia
    None of that is rocket science. It should have been blatantly obvious to anyone over the last 5 years that the market was unsustainable.

    Of course greed will always triumph over sense, especially when the Vested Interests are so powerful and so easily corrupted.
    It was obvious to anyone whose annual bonus was not dependent on talking up the market and getting the idiot punters to fall for it! Will the radio chat shows go back on their archives and get these people back on to explain their previous assertions? Not a chance.

  4. #894
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    I don't want to sound more Jeremiah-esque than Morgan Kelly, but has anyone factored into the equation what happens when Ireland's biggest trading partner experiences a similar bust about a year later?? Even the EAs here in Britain are saying it can't last....OK, so Britain is not so exposed to construction as the Irish economy, but our interest rates are going up faster, they are higher, Brits are more in debt, London is more expensive...and there are the £15bn wars.

    So here's the ???, what happens to Ireland if Irelands property bust coincides with the preceding American one, and a British collapse that happens in 2008, shall we say??

    Anyone notice the ECB interest rate rise yesterday?? Think the BOE is going to do the same today.
    The floggings will continue until morale improves

  5. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat girl
    I don't want to sound more Jeremiah-esque than Morgan Kelly, but has anyone factored into the equation what happens when Ireland's biggest trading partner experiences a similar bust about a year later?? Even the EAs here in Britain are saying it can't last....OK, so Britain is not so exposed to construction as the Irish economy, but our interest rates are going up faster, they are higher, Brits are more in debt, London is more expensive...and there are the £15bn wars.

    So here's the ???, what happens to Ireland if Irelands property bust coincides with the preceding American one, and a British collapse that happens in 2008, shall we say??

    Anyone notice the ECB interest rate rise yesterday?? Think the BOE is going to do the same today.
    The US economy stalled in the 1stQ to just 0.6% growth and will not be picking up much for the rest of the year after Bernakes comments a couple of days ago that the housing collapse has much further to go and will be of a greater impact on the wider economy than they had been thinking to date. Add in that the UK property bubble is arguably even worse than ours. Then there is just no good news or any get out of jail clause for the Irish economy.

    Looks like a lot of Irish people could yet have to refamiliarise themselves with the ferry timetables again!

  6. #896
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edo
    Very very good piece of commentary from Finfacts and should be read and be food for thought for folks from all political persuasions.

    This kind of long term thinking is badly absent from economic commentary at the moment , which seems to compose entirely of debating the ups and downs of the property market

    http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusiness ... 0263.shtml
    Thanks EDO for this.

    On Wed, the story above was posted. On the same day, an adviser to the Government from the Georgia Tech, questioned current innovation strategy.

    Today, Enterprise Minister Micheal Martin told a conference in Cork: "Ireland’s knowledge –based economy, built on innovation and technology, is substantially shaped by the emergence of strong technology-led and export-focused Irish companies. Companies, which have become world leaders in their respective industries."

    - like Microsoft, Intel ete etc

    Report
    Believe those who search for truth. Doubt those who claim to have found it -André Gide (1869-1951) Nobel Laureate 1947

  7. #897
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    KN, where are they going to go on the ferries?? Ireland's unemployment rate is one of the lowest in the EU right now, and the States is not looking good, as you said. I suppose Irish builders may well be in demand for the Olympics, though, and that will have to be paid for even if the UK economy seriously tanks? Have a horrible feeling the next recession may take most of the English speaking world with it.... Aussie friend says the drought there is causing unholy chaos. Dunno about NZ, and the Canadian property is beginning to level off after massive price rises the last few years (heading for the same place as our good selves??). Mind you, the Canucks have oil....when's the next flight to Alberta ;-)

    Methinks we should all go learn Cantonese.....
    The floggings will continue until morale improves

  8. #898
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    True, and allegedly we have up to 100,000 ready available TCFL (Teaching Cantonese as a Foreign Language) teachers on our doorstep!

  9. #899
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    Nah, mate. They're mostly mandarin speakers in Ireland these days. It used to be we got Cantonese speakers from Hong Kong, like Alliance Party MLA Anna Lo, but nowadays it's the mandarin speakers.
    Please sign the petition to establish a national day of celebration in honour of the vision of the United Irishmen!

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  10. #900
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    Are there any figures for?
    1) The % of private property which is owner/occupied
    2) % owned by private punters and rented
    3) Vacant investment properties which purchasor has been unable to sell at a profit or rent - I find professor Morgan's 210,000 at bit hard to belief but then again.
    4) Figures for median price of property
    5) Number of vacant properties within M50.
    6) Number of new properties over last 5 years within M50.
    7) The continuing trend of prices for FTB in Dublin.
    8) The number of people on 100% Interest only mortgages.

    Thanks to anyone who can supply actual figures.
    We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know.

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