Dublin property prices falling by €4,500 a month

[Johnny]

The 'Campaign for Stamp Duty Reform' run by The Independent (sic) has no momentum and is going nowhere as it is plain to see that abolishing stamp duty will just benefit the greedy.

I'd love to know just how many properties the various Sindo hacks are currently trying to offload at the moment. What a rag....

[Sidewinder]

Though sentiment in the south is turning fast, with the market now firmly entrenched in the denial/fear boundary, here in Derry the people seem to be about a year behind the curve. Every single person I've met this week has been babbling on about "property is my pension", "prices only go up, never fall" yadda fecking yadda. It's like Q405/Q106 all over again.

Prices are ludicrously high, but still not quite at Dublin/Galway income multiple levels. The northern boom seems to have a bit of life left in it yet, and looking at the shining eyes full of messianic zeal of the true believers I've met this week, I'm not sure even a complete collapse in the southern market would actually penetrate their religious zeal for bricks and mortar.

Why are humans such gullible sheep? And how come some of us are immune to this destructive herd impulse? Tis all rather fascinating. Not to mention depressing.

[ibis]

Though sentiment in the south is turning fast, with the market now firmly entrenched in the denial/fear boundary, here in Derry the people seem to be about a year behind the curve. Every single person I've met this week has been babbling on about "property is my pension", "prices only go up, never fall" yadda fecking yadda. It's like Q405/Q106 all over again.

Prices are ludicrously high, but still not quite at Dublin/Galway income multiple levels. The northern boom seems to have a bit of life left in it yet, and looking at the shining eyes full of messianic zeal of the true believers I've met this week, I'm not sure even a complete collapse in the southern market would actually penetrate their religious zeal for bricks and mortar.

Why are humans such gullible sheep? And how come some of us are immune to this destructive herd impulse? Tis all rather fascinating. Not to mention depressing.

It's all in the declension of the adjective - "we are determined, you are obstinate, they are pig-headed fools", or "bad things only happen to bad people".

[paypal]

" is plain to see that abolishing stamp duty will just benefit the greedy"

That's bunk, Coles, you're just parrotting the Sinn Fein party line.

Do you classify as greedy ordinary workers who have to pay perhaps 50.000 to the government in a taX that is ADDITIONAL to all the other taxes they already pay on a purchased house? Do SF think we workers should cheerfully write out the check to the govt? You're fools.

The farcical thing about Sinn Fein tax policies is that they want to greedily tax the working class and the middle class, but they'll leave the ultra-rich and the international corporations strictly alone. In taxation policy as in so much else, Sinn Fein is an enemy of the Irish working class--it's simply the Fianna Fail minor team.

[Coles]

I was in Portstewart for the weekend and it was depressing to listen to the inlaws harping on about how much their property was 'worth'... they reckon houses are up 50% in a year in Portstewart. Total madness.

[gaelach]

I know this is an abuse of P.ie and slightly off topic, but does anyone know, off what govt. website(or reliable other) I could get Irelands GNP/GDP figurs for 2006?

Thanks in advance...

[Coles]

" is plain to see that abolishing stamp duty will just benefit the greedy"

That's bunk, Coles, you're just parrotting the Sinn Fein party line.

Do you classify as greedy ordinary workers who have to pay perhaps 50.000 to the government in a taX that is ADDITIONAL to all the other taxes they already pay on a purchased house? Do SF think we workers should cheerfully write out the check to the govt? You're fools.

The farcical thing about Sinn Fein tax policies is that they want to greedily tax the working class and the middle class, but they'll leave the ultra-rich and the international corporations strictly alone. In taxation policy as in so much else, Sinn Fein is an enemy of the Irish working class--it's simply the Fianna Fail minor team.

I am not a member of that party, and all opinions that I express are my own. Why are you giving SF credit for my ideas?

Stamp duty is an important revenue generator that provodes the funds for public services. If Stamp duty were to be abolished, what public services would you recommend should be down-graded? Health? Education? What alternative taxation would you introduce and how would you suggest that should be done politically?

Why can you not accept that stamp duty is a component of the property price? There is no point in seperating it out as it has to be paid when a property is purchased. If you believe that abolishing stamp duty will somehow reduce the 'price', and lessen the burden on the purchaser, I would ask you to provide evidence for this. I will remind you of what happened when the 0% threshold was raised to 317'500 for 'First Time Buyers'. If stamp duty were abolished (or even reduced) the only benefactor would be the vendor.

Over the last five years, property investors have bought into the Irish market fully aware of the existance of stamp duty. It's been there for years. They have known that in a downturn stamp duty could restrict mobility within the market. Why would you change the rules to benefit them just as the market turns? I will remind you that the present bubble was created by these very 'investors' speculating in property. Why should the State forego revenue to bail out these greedy fools?

The construction industry is experiencing a turndown that has the potential to do very severe damage to the economy. But stamp duty has the effect of fueling the building/extension market by 'restricting mobility'. If a family need to 'up-grade- from a three-bed to a four-bed, this can be done by extending their current dwelling for the cost of the stamp duty on a bigger property. This will be a very important factor in cushioning the decline of the construction industry, and also has the added benefit of giving proper communities an opportunity to develop.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but I also don't expect you to provide some good reasons for abolishing stamp duty, unless of course you would rather a property tax... I could agree with you on that.

[MichaelHennigan]

I know this is an abuse of P.ie and slightly off topic, but does anyone know, off what govt. website(or reliable other) I could get Irelands GNP/GDP figurs for 2006?

Thanks in advance...

The CSO has published national accounts data up to Q3 2006. 2006 data for the full year will be available next week.

Year to Sept 2006

[Johnny]

"The first Irish Property Watch analysis of Daft.ie has revealed 422 drops over a seven-day period last week..... It should be noted that several properties have changed their asking prices to "Price on Application" over this 7-day period rather than publicly advertise their new (possibly/presumably lower?) price."

Link here

[zakalwe]

Coles,

very uninformed post and critique of stamp duty.

If Stamp duty were to be abolished, what public services would you recommend should be down-graded? Health? Education? What alternative taxation would you introduce and how would you suggest that should be done politically?

talk about a straw man argument. when cgt fell to its current level of 20% the effect was that the tax take from cgt rose substantially. sometimes a fall in the rate of tax leads to an increase in the tax haul.

Why can you not accept that stamp duty is a component of the property price?

its not. its a tax. its a sunk cost which you'll never recoup to be squandered by the government on a bloated civil service paid more than the private sector, or "health? education?" as you so elequontly put it.

If you believe that abolishing stamp duty will somehow reduce the 'price', and lessen the burden on the purchaser, I would ask you to provide evidence for this

impossible for ireland as we have always had stamp duty. how about we compare house prices in canada/australia/continental europe where stamp duty, if any, averages at a few thousand euro maximum. surely thats a better comparison. or do you follow the govts and retailers' assertions that things have to be more expensive in ireland because we're an island nation and if we didn't have to pay higher prices then we'll spend it all on drink?

Over the last five years, property investors have bought into the Irish market fully aware of the existance of stamp duty.

you could have said the same about the window tax levied by the british government on irish cottages in the 18th and 19th centuries. just because it was in place does not make it right. what about FTBers (myself included) who had to fork out over eur20k in stamp. money i did not have. i had to take out a car loan to pay it.