Originally Posted by Civic_critic2

Ireland must maintain a small military posture so as not to threaten Britain's presence in the north. This is a legacy of the treaty, a lived legacy for all of us with quite far reaching consequences and now also demanded by NATO. One merely needs to observe that Ireland is in fact a politically unstable country to see why.

Or maybe just facing facts a population of 4 million is never going to be a realistic threat to a nation of 60 million some glorious scouring of ireland where the prods were driven into the sea was never going to be allowed. So why waste cash on a military

Originally Posted by Protestant/Catholic=Irish

I don't know if we need mandatory military service or what, but young people these days need to toughen up big time! Of course the majority are still normal, but there is a growing epidemic that it's cool for a lad to be feminine and acceptable for them not to work or protect their family. Too many pussies these days and they annoy the hell out of me.

And I'm saying this as an 18 year old. By no means a tough strongman of one, just a normal man/boy/awkward phase when you are in transition between both who feels men should be men and leave the tight pants and earrings to the women.

Plenty of people need to man the fek up and grow a set etc.

Originally Posted by theloner

I believe a spell in the military would do a lot of our young men good.

politicians , even better . A good old spell in the army for Enda , Eamon and the crew. ship them all off to Africa or somewhere and hope they dont come back (they settle there I mean !)

Have any studies been done on the outcomes of mandatory service, either positive or negative? I found one done in Germany on a generation from before 1937 compared with a population from the 1950's, and found that there were small positive economic outcomes for the group that served in the military, but this effect disappeared when the adjusted for the fact that the military selected for physically fit individuals who tend to make more money anyway.

ScienceDirect.com - European Economic Review - Evaluating the labor-market effects of compulsory military service

Originally Posted by kvran

Masculine men are so strong and independent until they are confronted by someone who doesn't conform to their expectation of masculinity and they get angry. Very socially beneficial right there . . .

Masculinity is a lot like a hammer. A useful tool no doubt but blunt and inflexible. Societal changes has made masculinity seem purposeless and for many men it has become useless bravado like eating excessive amounts of bacon, objectifying women (often with terrible consequences) and binge drinking. A huge asssertion but sad to think if you asked the average young man who typifies masculine for them, many would say fictional characters like Charlie Sheen in two and half men and the blond suit guy from how I met your mother.

I wish masculinity could be re-established as a set of basic principle men are expected to live by, defenders of the weak, providers for those in needs and upholding the rights of others stuff like that. A nice live and live let attitude wouldn't be harmful either, if somebody doesn't conform to you expectation of gender roles be happy for them, if they're happy and there is NO social harm who cares.

Masculine men and feminine women merely accentuate their natural gender i.e. a man with a beard or a woman in a dress. Larger louts are not a symbol of masculinity and their behaviour has nothing to do with it either.
You seem to be referring to chivalry which should not really be needed as we have laws to protect people.

Originally Posted by LamportsEdge

I've re-read it and there is no information in the OP which would reveal whether the OP him/herself would be in the qualifying group of 'young males' to have to do military service.

Just buy World of Warcraft and settle one's militaristic fantasies that way?

"What do you think, Korea has 24 months of mandatory service, I propose 1 year for our little darlings, from the ages of 18 to 32. That way it includes myself.".............................................

We could do a survey on it - like in Yes Minister.



Humphrey: You know what happens: Nice young lady comes up to you. Obviously you want to create a good impression, you don't want to look a fool, do you? So she starts asking you some questions: " Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the number of young people without jobs?"
Bernard: Yes
Humphrey: "Are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?"
Bernard: Yes
Humphrey: "Do you think there is a lack of discipline in our Comprehensive schools?"
Bernard: Yes
Humphrey: "Do you think young people welcome some authority and leadership in their lives?"
Bernard: Yes
Humphrey: "Do you think they respond to a challenge?"
Bernard: Yes
Humphrey: "Would you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?"
Bernard: Oh...well, I suppose I might be.
Humphrey: "Yes or no?"
Bernard: Yes
Humphrey: Of course you would, Bernard. After all you told her you can't say no to that. So they don't mention the first five questions and they publish the last one.
Bernard: Is that really what they do?
Humphrey: Well, not the reputable ones no, but there aren't many of those. So alternatively the young lady can get the opposite result.
Bernard: How?
Humphrey: "Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war?"
Bernard: Yes
Humphrey: "Are you worried about the growth of armaments?"
Bernard: Yes
Humphrey: "Do you think there is a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?"
Bernard: Yes
Humphrey: "Do you think it is wrong to force people to take up arms against their will?"
Bernard: Yes
Humphrey: "Would you oppose the reintroduction of National Service?"
Bernard: Yes
Humphrey: There you are, you see Bernard. The perfect balanced sample.

Conscription is only justifiable in the face of an overwhelming potential threat , South Korea , Finland , etc . My experience of Army life was a negative one on balance , at least for the enlisted man .

Originally Posted by theloner

Although Ireland isn't technically at war with anyone, I believe a spell in the military would do a lot of our young men good. We have seen the breakdown of society and the level of antisocial behaviour go through the roof in recent years. Indeed drugs are more readily available now than ever before in Irish society.

In parts of the country early family/parent training has been used as an important intervention/prevention effort to combat wayward youths. Unemployment figures are also extremely high and with idle hands go idle minds, leaving more of an incentive for our youths and young adults, mostly male, to slip into antisocial ways, which in turn leads to a life or career of crime in many cases. Indeed, the added influence of drugs and the widespread use of drugs makes this trapdoor even deeper and more difficult to climb out of.

Indeed in Dublin alone last year, more than 230 people were evicted due to antisocial behaviour while others sought a house transfer to escape antisocial neighbours. Of course, these antisocial families aren't made up of solely young men, but walk around any estate in the country late at night on the weekend and the 'blue bag brigade', pretty criminals, house breakers, etc. are young males.

Many people on this board will be familiar with Korean and ex-Celtic star Ki Seung Young. He, although a multi-millionaire football star, still has to complete his military service in his own country. His story actually got me thinking about this thread, as there are pros and cons to having mandatory military service and although the Koreans are technically still at war with their brothers in the north, many within Korea see it as a step to completing one's transition from a boy into a man. Antisocial levels, housebreaking and drugs are almost non-existent in Korea, their crime statistics are made up of mostly white collar crime and less so blue collar misbehaviour.

The model in Korea also has its exemptions, for example, an Olympic medallist or someone with a medical problem wont be forced to serve their time in the army. For Ireland its just a thought, especially when I see the louts and thuggery perpetrated every night of the week on our streets, in schools, in bars, etc.

What do you think, Korea has 24 months of mandatory service, I propose 1 year for our little darlings, from the ages of 18 to 32. That way it includes myself.

Here are other countries with military service limited to 1 year or less:

Austria (6–12 months)
Bolivia (12 months)
Brazil (9–12 months)
Cape Verde (12–14 months, selective)
Colombia
Denmark (4–12 months)
Estonia (8–11 months)
Finland (6–12 months)
Greece (9 months)
Guatemala (12–24 months)
Moldova (12 months)
Mongolia (12 months)
Norway (6–12 months)
Paraguay (12 months for Army, 24 months for Navy)
Russia (12 months)
Switzerland (5 months)
Taiwan (12 months, selective)
Tunisia (12 months)
Turkey (6–12 months)
Ukraine (12 months)
Uzbekistan (12 months)

I think theres a lot to be said for it , with a number of provisos:

12 months of service
Males and females, no exempions.
Aged 17 to 25
NO exemption for education, or anything else, except extreme medical conditions.

Although a military structure and unfiorm would be employed, people should be free to choose their specialist area eg military corps/ medical corps/exploration/survival skills/naval/construction etc. and not be forced into 'combat 'training if they are idealogically oppeosed.

It would build strenght and cohesion into a stratified society. Kids with poor family backgrounds could be shown new possibilities.

finally , it wouldnt hurt having a population capable of being mobilised in case of national emergency.

does ireland need a 60000 strong army?
that cant actually be deployed consripts tend not to be sent anywhere remotely dangerous unless its a war of national surival.
after you've equipped housed that size of force there be no money for any modern kit left.
any un force will become increasingly irrelevant any professional soldier will be reduced to be a glorified teacher/youth worker.