Originally Posted by likesfish

. Designedby the ignorant
Built by the incompetant
Issued to the unfortunate.

Trite soundbite from previous posts is somebody who obviously has no exprience of the weapon - yet was decrying the fact that Royal Ordnance shut Enfield and it's workers who are now ignorant and incompetent.

It only works now because it was rebuilt at vast expense by Hk.

Heckler & Koch did rebuild it - what's the relevance? In effect Royal Ordnance rebuilt it's own rifle.

The whole sorry lot could have been sold for scrap

I'm sure it could have been. But only an moron would have done that. Surprising therefore why it wasn't more widely considered.

Brought something from a decent European arms maker

Such as?

brought and every member of hm forces given an evening with a high class escort drink and hotel included and the Mod would still have saved cash

Each weapon was rebuilt for an average cost of £400. So one does wonder what exactly you could buy for the same money and what type of dirty whores you frequent and in which dingy hotel...

Makes the chinook fiasco look competant.

Of Course. But irrelevant.

When even a terrorist steals one and decides its rubbish you have a lemon

Yeah - again all you're doing is spouting things which you obviously have little knowledge of.

Originally Posted by myksav

Go check out the history of the .303 Enfield/Lee Enfield.
Go check out the history of the AK47.
15 years?

Would you seriously regard the AK47 as a modern weapon? Advances in technology are making the last generation of weapons obsolete quicker and quicker that is why I give 15 year timespan as a guide when you have to replace a weapon. Adapting older weapons for new technology is never as good as having a new weapon with the technology built in as part of its design.

Originally Posted by gijoe

Would you seriously regard the AK47 as a modern weapon? Advances in technology are making the last generation of weapons obsolete quicker and quicker that is why I give 15 year timespan as a guide when you have to replace a weapon. Adapting older weapons for new technology is never as good as having a new weapon with the technology built in as part of its design.

Modern? Yah, like the Lee Enfield. The point was longevity not modernity. The primary function of a rifle is to project a piece of metal at high velocity over a distance. Most of the technological advances are in the targeting systems.

Originally Posted by gijoe

Adapting older weapons for new technology is never as good as having a new weapon with the technology built in as part of its design.

How about thinking of adapting new technology to existing weapons systems? If that weapon itself works well.

Originally Posted by myksav

...If that weapon itself works well.

it does - in that it makes a small piece of metal go very fast out of the pointy end, and ensures that the little piece of metal will get to at least 500m and if it hits someone at that range, go through them. i am unaware of what other qualities a rifle needs.

the Steyr is reasonably reliable, its reasonable easy to keep in working order, and its not particularly heavy - it does the job.

the only real reason the Steyr should be replaced before something much lighter comes along is the calibre of the weapon - its in NATO 5.56mm, and 5.56mm has not been getting a brilliant review when it comes to doing what you buy it for, which is killing people. if NATO moves, post Afghanistan, back to 7.62mm, or forward to 6.8mm, then the Steyr needs to be looked at, both for interoperability, and because if 5.56mm doesn't work for NATO armies, then its not going to work for an Irish Army either.

personally, i'd not be surprised to see 7.62mm win the debate - a) its already in widespread servive with NATO with the GPMG, b) improvements in metalurgy mean that a 7.62mm weapon is no longer anything like as heavy as it used to be - see the recent UK adoption of the 7.62mm 'maximi' version of the standard 5.56mm Minimi weapon, and c) after the failure of the 5.56mm experiment, governments are going to be less willing to take a bet on yet another unproven calibre like the 6.8mm.
by all means do an upgrade of sight units and ergonomics, but hold fire on a big spend until you see what everyone else is going to do about 5.56mm.

Originally Posted by sidney higginbottom

the only real reason the Steyr should be replaced before something much lighter comes along is the calibre of the weapon - its in NATO 5.56mm, and 5.56mm has not been getting a brilliant review when it comes to doing what you buy it for, which is killing people.

Some strategists argue that simply injuring enemy combatants puts more strain on the enemy than killing them outright.

Originally Posted by ruserious

Some strategists argue that simply injuring enemy combatants puts more strain on the enemy than killing them outright.

that was the plan when the enemy was 3rd Soviet Shock Army rampaging across the north German plain. however, 5.56mm isn't very good at going through cars, or light cover, or going as far as 7.62mm with enough energy to do enough damage when it gets there.

so, it may have been a good plan in 1980, its been shown to be not a good plan now - its also been shown to be a plan devised by people who haven't had the dubious experience of being shot at by people they've already shot with 5.56mm.

Decent 5.56rounds fired from proper length barrels kill at reasonable distances.
And kill regularly.
They won't at long range or punch through compound walls neither will 7.62.
Niether of which is of much importance to the Irish military who need a rifle that will get them out of the poo if peacekeeping goes wrong.
And general military guarding stuff styer might not be te best but it will do.
Much like the A2
If a new super cartridge is going to be developed leave it to. The us or NATO to spend the cash.
Unless a bloke like glock turns up and changes everything.

Originally Posted by likesfish

...Niether of which is of much importance to the Irish military who need a rifle that will get them out of the poo if peacekeeping goes wrong...

precisely why Ireland needs to have a very capable rifle - Irish soldiers on PK ops that go wrong don't have easy access to the kind of heavy weapons that soldiers at war have access to when it all goes tits up. if a US rifle section manning a VCP in Helmand gets into a firefight they can instantly call on their own mortars and Artillery, if that doesn't work they've got CAS in plentiful supply within minutes. if an Irish rifle section manning a VCP in Lebanon, or Chad, or Liberia gets caught in a firefight they're on their own - thats why an Irish rifle section needs to be, if anything, better armed than its eviquilant elsewhere.

5.56mm kills, but it doesn't kill at such long range, through such cover, and so effectively, as 7.62mm.

or do you think the BA has adopted the 7.62mm Maximi to 'enhance' the current 5.56mm Minimi because it feels that its soldiers need to lose a bit of beef?

Originally Posted by sidney higginbottom

precisely why Ireland needs to have a very capable rifle - Irish soldiers on PK ops that go wrong don't have easy access to the kind of heavy weapons that soldiers at war have access to when it all goes tits up. if a US rifle section manning a VCP in Helmand gets into a firefight they can instantly call on their own mortars and Artillery, if that doesn't work they've got CAS in plentiful supply within minutes. if an Irish rifle section manning a VCP in Lebanon, or Chad, or Liberia gets caught in a firefight they're on their own - thats why an Irish rifle section needs to be, if anything, better armed than its eviquilant elsewhere.

5.56mm kills, but it doesn't kill at such long range, through such cover, and so effectively, as 7.62mm.

or do you think the BA has adopted the 7.62mm Maximi to 'enhance' the current 5.56mm Minimi because it feels that its soldiers need to lose a bit of beef?

I think it's more to do with lightening the load compared to the light role GPMG, which has never seemed to have gone away, despite it competitors best efforts.

Well when you put in a weapons bundle and it comes out broken what can you expect.