Cannabis haul! This is a Joke, Wake Up Smell the Beans

[femmefatale]

Frankly Femme, that's just blah, blah, blah... It is not an answer to my question, and I note the avoidance with interest.

Cato, whether we like it are not, the current legal position is what it is. Do you really expect the authorities to come out and say that the State has no business regulating peoples lives, so henceforth all drug selling and purchasing will be considered a legitimate private exchange between individual citizens? If people want cannabis decriminalized they are going to have to make a persuasive case for that. Critics and undecided persons will not be convinced by the argument that it may be harmful but that's no reason to ban it. I personally am concerned that supporters claim cannabis is not addictive and has no lasting effects, yet people do seem to be dependent on it and it would appear to have the potential to have a strong influence on their life. I think it is different from alcohol and other potentially harmful substances.

Maybe no drugs should be banned. I am not advocating the prohibition of all harmful/addictive substances. The fact of the matter is that cannabis is currently illegal and if people want the law changed, they are going to have to provide evidence that the advantages of decriminalization outweigh any and all disadvantages.

[sarahj]

Cato, whether we like it are not, the current legal position is what it is. Do you really expect the authorities to come out and say that the State has no business regulating peoples lives, so henceforth all drug selling and purchasing will be considered a legitimate private exchange between individual citizens? If people want cannabis decriminalized they are going to have to make a persuasive case for that. Critics and undecided persons will not be convinced by the argument that it may be harmful but that's no reason to ban it. I personally am concerned that supporters claim cannabis is not addictive and has no lasting effects, yet people do seem to be dependent on it and it would appear to have the potential to have a strong influence on their life. I think it is different from alcohol and other potentially harmful substances.

Maybe no drugs should be banned. I am not advocating the prohibition of all harmful/addictive substances. The fact of the matter is that cannabis is currently illegal and if people want the law changed, they are going to have to provide evidence that the advantages of decriminalization outweigh any and all disadvantages.

femme, people do seem to be dependent on tea in Ireland too. 100% of women over 40 that I know are extremely dependent on tea. Is this a reason to criminalise it?

How exactly is it different from alcohol and other potentially harmful substances, seeing as you are a cannabis expert now?

I don't get what you are trying to say. CAnnabis has been studied for years, in more depth than heroin or alcohol as far as I know. Noone has found any decent reason to ban it - if they did, it would be massive news. The burden of proof is on your side, not mine.

[scratchnsniff]

With regards long term use and intellect - I happen to know 2 people who have been smoking daily for more than 20 years. They would run rings around any man or woman in an intellectual debate (even while stoned).

only got this far in reading the thread. legalize it or not but don't pretend its harmless, my brother has been a heavy cannabis user for the last 20 years, He is completely incapable of holding an intelligent conversation, utterly selfish and paranoid (their is a long list after this). I no longer have anything to do with him, the cannabis use has turned him from a decent human being with potential for a good life into a waster I never saw him once in all that time in a state where he could discuss changing.
Oh and he didn't use other drugs, cannabis was all he wanted so he wouldn't spend money on anything else, including going out , traveling or even going to his sisters Funeral to comfort her children. He has utterly wasted his life. So dont give the ballix about it being harmless.
yes i did a bit as a student, and i know lots of people who still do. For most no harm will come. but dont pretend their is no danger.

[Cato]

Cato, whether we like it are not, the current legal position is what it is. Do you really expect the authorities to come out and say that the State has no business regulating peoples lives, so henceforth all drug selling and purchasing will be considered a legitimate private exchange between individual citizens? If people want cannabis decriminalized they are going to have to make a persuasive case for that. Critics and undecided persons will not be convinced by the argument that it may be harmful but that's no reason to ban it. I personally am concerned that supporters claim cannabis is not addictive and has no lasting effects, yet people do seem to be dependent on it and it would appear to have the potential to have a strong influence on their life. I think it is different from alcohol and other potentially harmful substances.

Maybe no drugs should be banned. I am not advocating the prohibition of all harmful/addictive substances. The fact of the matter is that cannabis is currently illegal and if people want the law changed, they are going to have to provide evidence that the advantages of decriminalization outweigh any and all disadvantages.

Still not a real answer. There is no evidence-based reason to support the continued existence of this stupid law, but you want me to make a case 'for' cannabis. I contend that their is no real argument 'against' cannabis beyond ignorance and prejudice, therefore their is no case to be made to retain the law.

And by the way, why do you continue to ignore the 'regulate it, standardize it and tax it part of my argument? It wouldn't end up as purely a private matter between individual, but rather a private transaction governed by law, much as the sale of cigarettes is so governed.

[femmefatale]

Seriously femme?! How can you be so sure of anything with cannabis when you appear to never have taken it yourself, nor do you know anyone who takes it??? It really confuses me that you are so certain of these "cons" having had no personal experience with the drug.

It would be like me asserting that chewing coca leaf is bad for people on the basis of some scaremongering whispers I have heard without trying the plant or having contact with people who take it regularly.

Where is your evidence?

Sarah, I have not had absolutely no experience of cannabis. Yes, I have not sampled it myself. I do however know people who have. I have also read about the subject. I am not completely uninformed. It is unfair of you to suggest that people who have not consumed cannabis can't comment or express an opinion on the matter. Should those who haven't taken heroin be disqualified from debates on the regulation of that drug? I have a relative who is a doctor specializing in drug rehabilitation. Do you think he should have to sample every drug before he treats people or comments on drug use in Ireland?

I assiduously avoid scare-mongering.

[JCSkinner]

the cannabis use has turned him from a decent human being with potential for a good life into a waster I never saw him once in all that time in a state where he could discuss changing.
Oh and he didn't use other drugs, cannabis was all he wanted so he wouldn't spend money on anything else, including going out , traveling or even going to his sisters Funeral to comfort her children. He has utterly wasted his life.

And yet tens of millions of cannabis users don't waste their life. Barack Obama admits smoking dope and he's US President.
You're making a category error here. Cannabis didn't make your brother a waster. Your brother was a waster already who has sought comfort in cannabis to ease the pain of the fact that he's done nothing of worth in his existence.

[Cato]

only got this far in reading the thread. legalize it or not but don't pretend its harmless, my brother has been a heavy cannabis user for the last 20 years, He is completely incapable of holding an intelligent conversation, utterly selfish and paranoid (their is a long list after this). I no longer have anything to do with him, the cannabis use has turned him from a decent human being with potential for a good life into a waster I never saw him once in all that time in a state where he could discuss changing.
Oh and he didn't use other drugs, cannabis was all he wanted so he wouldn't spend money on anything else, including going out , traveling or even going to his sisters Funeral to comfort her children. He has utterly wasted his life. So dont give the ballix about it being harmless.
yes i did a bit as a student, and i know lots of people who still do. For most no harm will come. but dont pretend their is no danger.

So much like alcohol then. Moderation is, as with most things, the key. People should be free to make mistakes, as a consequence of personal responsibility, or not, as the case may be. Do you really want a nanny state making sure that we never come to harm and tucking us in at night? I think not.

Thanks for the post though. Appreciate the personal experience and the honesty.

[sarahj]

Sarah, I have not had absolutely no experience of cannabis. Yes, I have not sampled it myself. I do however know people who have. I have also read about the subject. I am not completely uninformed. It is unfair of you to suggest that people who have not consumed cannabis can't comment or express an opinion on the matter. Should those who haven't taken heroin be disqualified from debates on the regulation of that drug? I have a relative who is a doctor specializing in drug rehabilitation. Do you think he should have to sample every drug before he treats people or comments on drug use in Ireland?

I assiduously avoid scare-mongering.

I never stated that. I stated that you are so sure that all these cons exist without ever having taken the drug.

I think that he possibly should sample drugs before he assigns positive or negative effects to them as an expert, yes. I would be more convinced by a drug counsellor who had tried drugs and understood the experience who could empathise with a patient than a clinically cold one who only consulted "evidence".

As has been stated previously on this thread, many studies which find against cannabis are sponsored by vested interests and are designed to look for negatives as opposed to positives. Why is this "evidence" any better than personal experience?

[femmefatale]

femme, people do seem to be dependent on tea in Ireland too. 100% of women over 40 that I know are extremely dependent on tea. Is this a reason to criminalise it?

How exactly is it different from alcohol and other potentially harmful substances, seeing as you are a cannabis expert now?

I don't get what you are trying to say. CAnnabis has been studied for years, in more depth than heroin or alcohol as far as I know. Noone has found any decent reason to ban it - if they did, it would be massive news. The burden of proof is on your side, not mine.

If no one has found any reason to ban it, why is it banned at all?

Are you really saying that it's comparable to tea? If so, why don't cannabis users just have a cup of that instead and forego their use of cannabis??

Alcohol is a different substance and poses different problems and risks. In these debates, I think it's helpful to compare like with like. Cannabis is not like tea or alcohol.

[sarahj]

only got this far in reading the thread. legalize it or not but don't pretend its harmless, my brother has been a heavy cannabis user for the last 20 years, He is completely incapable of holding an intelligent conversation, utterly selfish and paranoid (their is a long list after this). I no longer have anything to do with him, the cannabis use has turned him from a decent human being with potential for a good life into a waster I never saw him once in all that time in a state where he could discuss changing.
Oh and he didn't use other drugs, cannabis was all he wanted so he wouldn't spend money on anything else, including going out , traveling or even going to his sisters Funeral to comfort her children. He has utterly wasted his life. So dont give the ballix about it being harmless.
yes i did a bit as a student, and i know lots of people who still do. For most no harm will come. but dont pretend their is no danger.

How about YOU admit that there were factors in your brothers life that caused him to turn to a drug for comfort? If it had not been cannabis, it would have been alcohol or coke or prescription drugs...

You need to stop blaming the drug and ask yourself why your brother gave up on his life? It certainly wasn't because of a specific drug. I am aware that his situation is distressing for you and I am very sorry, however, do not blame a drug. You have no evidence of causation anyway.

I would bet that your brother would have "wasted his life" (if that's the subjective assessment you wish to give) with or without cannabis.