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Thread: Is modern Ireland beginning to resemble the USSR?

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    Politics.ie Regular scolairebocht's Avatar
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    Is modern Ireland beginning to resemble the USSR?

    A lot of Eastern European dissidents are saying something like this, that the modern EU is beginning to resemble the USSR and that some of the old Communist tactics are increasingly in evidence. However to be fair, and realistic, its obvious that the West, and Ireland in particular, does not look like the former Eastern Bloc in many important respects. Clearly the feel or general atmosphere of the two systems are - or were until very recently - completely different in say three overarching respects. But in the last few years these areas might be changing to resemble the USSR:


    1) Concrete and Steel Landscape
    Just to begin with actually a small point. Eastern European architecture and the general look of those countries under communism is I think famously one of a drab concrete jungle type atmosphere. Soulless uniform housing blocks and motorways crashing through, and destroying, the historic architecture of those countries was very evident in some places and added to the general lifeless atmosphere that many travellers remarked upon.

    I respectfully submit that this was no accident. It was in fact a communist tactic to promote a kind of utilitarian, unartistic and generally uninspiring visual landscape in order that the inhabitants would be affected by this and would listlessly accept the rule of the powers that be rather than be inspired by the heroic surroundings which we often - or used to - have in Ireland. For example in 1963 a committee of the US Congress heard evidence that the Communist party aimed to:
    “- Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."
    - Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art.”"(1)
    Maybe it isn't such an accident that so many great people have come from inspiring type of places, like O'Connell from Derrynane or Parnell from the wooded slopes of Wicklow etc.

    Right now what is happening in Ireland is that a once beautiful country is being completely mauled by vast concrete elephants of motorways and bypasses, and by the creation of bleak soulless housing estates. Contrary to the way some spin it, in this writers opinion this growth was driven by Irish state agencies, who created things like 5 year plans where the local authorities only permitted housing within narrow strips around towns and placed huge regulations on top of developers which effectively compelled them to create very uniform houses. And we know now that behind the scenes the EU has great control over these agencies and was of course the primary mover in creating those giant concrete valleys that they call motorways. Is this by accident or design? Are they deliberately creating a landscape like the former Eastern Bloc? Here is a comment on this from Fantasia:
    "Tara is being destroyed, along with Clonmacnoice and Skellig Mor, by Grand Design. TPTB will not tolerate any source of spiritual energy that undermines their global ambitions."(2)

    2) Private Property versus State Controlled Economy
    One somewhat obvious point is that under Communism the state controlled all aspects of the economy. Private industries, and to a degree, private property, was not really permitted, and this then is a big difference between the West now and the Eastern Bloc 20 years ago. However it is noticeable that this situation is changing quite dramatically in response to the economic crisis. In practice what happened is that during the economic boom huge swathes of Irish property and businesses became caught up in the credit splurge, and handed over title deeds into banks as collateral for loans. So actually a huge proportion of Irish land and private property is now listed as bank assets. These are in turn now in jeopardy as part of those non performing loans we hear a lot about, and soon to be given to the state agency called Nama. Nama is to be funded by bonds that are quite likely to end up in the possession of the European Central Bank. A similar process is happening in the US with respect to the Federal Reserve. But surely this raises the prospect that the ECB, and the Federal Reserve, will own most of the private property in Ireland and the US respectively? Then we'd look exactly like a communist country?

    Of course under Communism the truth was that Stalin etc wanted to have control over the whole private sector in order to control the whole population comprehensively. He figured that if all sources of finance were under his thumb then it'd be harder to organise any resistance to his rule. Incidentally its a curious fact that after the Great Depression in the 30s some members of the Fabian group in the UK, in particular H G Wells, seemed to suggest that a takeover of the banks by the state could be possible in the West and that it would in turn transform those societies into something similar to the USSR. Here is Wells speaking to Stalin in 1937:
    "It seems to me that what is taking place in the United States is a profound reorganization, the creation of planned, that is, socialist, economy. You and Roosevelt begin from two different starting points. But is there not a relation in ideas, a kinship of ideas, between Washington and Moscow? In Washington I was struck by the same thing I see going on here; they are building offices, they are creating a number of new state regulation bodies, they are organizing a long-needed Civil Service. Their need, like yours, is directive ability.
    ...
    If we begin with the State control of the banks, and then follow with the control of transport, of the heavy industries, of industry in general, of commerce, etc., such an all-embracing control will be equivalent to the State ownership of all branches of national economy." (3)
    3) Religious Faith Oppressed
    Anyway another clear difference between the USSR and Ireland today is the role of religion. Obviously the Communists hated religion, especially the Christian religion. This is very obvious if you glance at all at the history of the creation of the Eastern Bloc, and its even true of places like China where the Christian community was very small in any case. The Communists oppressed the churches, stopping religious education in the schools, stripping out religious symbols from all institutions (actually only from state institutions, but of course as Communism grew every institution came under the control of the state so that was only a semantic difference) and set the dogs of the state controlled media loose on the clergy. The media sneered at them constantly and especially at their celibate state in the case of the Catholic clergy.

    Does anybody think that there is some parallel here to modern Ireland? It seems to this observer, at any rate, that Irish radio for example commonly heaps all kinds of vitriol and abuse at the traditional Catholicism of the Irish people. There is no doubt at all that people were ill treated in the industrial schools, those state run institutions, but the hype that's going around on this subject is unreal? I respectfully submit that this whole year of 2009 has given us a torrent of over hyped anti-religious, almost brainwashing, media coverage. But anybody who observes the Irish media closely would have to admit that it is very state controlled (eg look at Rossport or Lisbon) and always has an agenda in whatever it highlights. So why bash peoples religious faith, what is their agenda here?

    I wonder if a closer examination of why the former USSR etc targeted religious faith so much might be in order to understand all this. Here is my tuppenceworth on why the Soviets looked on religious faith as so great a threat to them:

    A bizarre analogy I know but imagine if you would one of those classic postcards from Australia, the picture of the koala bear standing upright by clinging with his hands and feet to a branch. Its almost like he can only stand upright by grasping the branch closely. That is how much human beings need a code of ethics, a yardstick for what they consider is right and wrong. Everyday your brain pumps out that concept to you and you couldn't really function without one. And obviously traditionally in Ireland the Church provided that essential yardstick. Imagine if you had attended Christian Doctrine classes in school when you were young and debated all the usual moral dilemmas in that context (e.g. whether cannibalism would be justified if you were left on a boat and could do nothing else to survive etc etc) and you discussed these questions in the light of the timeless authorities of that religion (referring to quotes from St Thomas Aquinas, whatever) then you would have absorbed this religion as your basic moral yardstick. Remember this is a reference to what yardstick you choose to adopt, whether you live up to the ideals of that moral code is actually a separate issue. Many people for example might breach this code but still see it as being the right moral framework. I guess that question depends on your nature etc but in any case its a separate issue from what you decide should be your moral guidance.

    OK now picture what happens if a person loses that faith, by listening to sneering radio stations in the former USSR or whatever. Now they are like the koala bear without a stick, they cannot stand upright unless they can find some other branch to cling to. As pointed out, a human being needs a moral code to function at all. So what happens then is that they go in search of a suitable moral code in society, to replace the religious one. And, as often as not, they anchor their code of ethics in institutions that are controlled behind the scenes by the communist authorities. So for example maybe the media itself becomes your moral code, in the USSR you might start reading Pravda etc looking for guidance there where before you didn't take it so seriously (and maybe just didn't believe it). You might wax lyrical about peer reviewed journals and science in general, which again the communist state had in its thrall. Or, typically, you make the law your moral code. In modern Ireland that would mean that the EU bureaucrats become your moral guardians, because in practice most Irish laws have their origin there now. The point is that when people have lost their religious guidance, it just throws them more into the hands of these other institutions, they acquire a kind of more profound truth or importance in the eyes of citizens who have lost that earlier, religious, moral code. Hence since the communists controlled these institutions behind the scenes, they then more successfully acquired a kind of brainwashing hold over their citizens, a kind of power that would not be possible while the citizens clung to this older code of morality.

    Is that what the EU is doing in Ireland now? In any case the more you look at how Ireland is developing recently the more you get the impression that we are becoming like the former USSR?


    Footnotes
    1. The Kentroversy Papers .

    2. http://www.politics.ie/environment/9...nothing-2.html .

    3. Joseph Stalin and H.G. Wells, Marxism VS Liberalism .
    Last edited by scolairebocht; 29th August 2009 at 02:35 AM.

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    Politics.ie Member PigPus the Truthteller's Avatar
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    Great stuff Scolaire, lets see where this thread goes

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    Quote Originally Posted by PigPus the Truthteller View Post
    Great stuff Scolaire, lets see where this thread goes
    In the bin would be the best place. Not a bad pisstake in fairness. I liked the koala bear analogy. So back to school shortly?

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    Politics.ie Regular Fantasia's Avatar
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    Great stuff Scolaire

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    Politics.ie Member mryoungdan's Avatar
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    This article today by Nyquist gives further food for thought

    Past Global Analysis - J. R. Nyquist "The Sequence" 08/28/2009

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    Having visited the USSR many times, I can say that there was one major difference between it and Ireland. To oversimplify somewhat: in the USSR, everyone had plenty of money, but there was nothing to buy with it. In Ireland, everything that one could imagine is in the shops, but money is in short supply.:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

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    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxKYYK52oTI]YouTube - Russian folk music Kasatchok[/ame]
    Beware of fearful masters

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    I would say that UCD is a perfect example of the concrete landscape created by socialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scolairebocht View Post

    1) Concrete and Steel Landscape

    Right now what is happening in Ireland is that a once beautiful country is being completely mauled by vast concrete elephants of motorways and bypasses, and by the creation of bleak soulless housing estates. Contrary to the way some spin it, in this writers opinion this growth was driven by Irish state agencies, who created things like 5 year plans where the local authorities only permitted housing within narrow strips around towns and placed huge regulations on top of developers which effectively compelled them to create very uniform houses. And we know now that behind the scenes the EU has great control over these agencies and was of course the primary mover in creating those giant concrete valleys that they call motorways. Is this by accident or design? Are they deliberately creating a landscape like the former Eastern Bloc? Here is a comment on this from Fantasia:
    Are you saying that the developers and the government were the puppets of the EU in creating soul-less housing estates and motorways?

    Ever come across a book called 'Bungalow Bliss'? It contained the plans of a choice of bungalows so that people who owned sites could build a house off the plans without an architect. The choice was very narrow. All equally ugly imo, but if I was a farmer with a family who needed houses, I'm sure I'd get over that.

    Point I'm making is that the site-owners, probably mostly Irish, chose to build these. Irish people are not known for their aesthetic sense in general - we don't need the EU or government to pull our strings in that direction.

    We prefer bad 'design' (developers/site owners) because its cheaper.



    Quote Originally Posted by scolairebocht View Post
    2) Private Property versus State Controlled Economy
    But surely this raises the prospect that the ECB, and the Federal Reserve, will own most of the private property in Ireland and the US respectively? Then we'd look exactly like a communist country?
    Nama will not own most of the property in Ireland. Most of the land of Ireland will still be in private ownership. It is merely distributing the losses of the owners of those sites to be held by the majority of Irish people. Socialism for the rich only.


    Quote Originally Posted by scolairebocht View Post
    3) Religious Faith Oppressed
    Religious faith is oppressed in Ireland? Thats clearly not true.
    As for your cute little Koala and stick analogy, I would say that morality is inherent in humans, we just have to remember to use it. Treat others like you would like to be treated yourself is not that hard to appreciate.

    Only someone very paranoid would say religious faith is oppressed in Ireland. It is protected in our Consitution, and it has specific protections in equality legislation which gives it a higher standing legislatively than other systems of belief. If religious belief is so convincing in itself, why does it need special protection? I digress.

    Thank you for going to such trouble to put your thoughts in words. If your underlying theory is that folk will believe 'ought, then I agree with you and I agree that humans are very vulnerable to being gullible and easily lead. Religions depend upon that.
    But Ireland like the USSR? No.
    Last edited by Mar Tweedy; 29th August 2009 at 08:08 AM.

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    Politics.ie Regular Libero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scolariebocht
    In any case the more you look at how Ireland is developing recently the more you get the impression that we are becoming like the former USSR?
    Yes, any day now, Ireland will annex Cumbria, Durham and Northumberland, plant Irish-speaking settlers and deport dissidents to gulags in Connaught.

    Ex-leader Bertie will be denounced by the new regime but the central pillars of his project will remain, especially the secret police.

    The collectivisation of farms will continue (you didn't mention the CAP!)

    Then we locate nuclear missles in Nova Scotia, prompting a showdown with a new young Democrat president in the USA.

    Yes, the more one thinks about it, the more we're just like the USSR.

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