Hotel Ballyfornia

[Schuhart]

Suppose you had a situation in a town where the school(s) fell down or were condemned. You then have the option of going back to hedge schools or using another building.

Chronic overstatement of the issue, which ignores how it would happen that a hotel would be the obvious ‘another building’.

Hotels are by definition mainly in easy to reach locations and usually near entry ports or travel points of some kind.

Insolvent hotels are presumably located in locations that, in theory, guests would find easy to reach but, in practice, they didn’t reach. Both of those principles are miles away from being locations that schoolchildren will find easy to reach every day of the school year.

You seem to be caught up in the financial ramifications for the investors/developers of the hotels.

No, I’m caught up in the ramifications of the State throwing my good tax money after bad private investments.

I'm beginning to wonder whether you are a developer in one of these hotels.

Well stop wondering, because I’ll start wondering if you’re losing all grip on reality. My only interest is in the exposure to the taxpayer. I’ve nothing to do with hotels.

Hotels are not 'radomly scattered about the country'. They have to have some kind of infrastructure nearby and many of these small hotels have function rooms- what functions would be popular stuck away in an inaccessible part of the country?

You are missing the very basic point that these hotels have gone out of business. What does that say about their location? Why is a bad location for a hotel automatically good for a school.

There is no argument whatsoever for leaving schools to deteriorate into portakabin circles.

There is if the alternative is worse. Your alternative is worse.

If there were even 20 hotels in the country suitable for easy conversion that is 20 schools that don't have to be built from scratch, without having to buy land and pick which TD's nephew gets the building contract. Huge savings there alone.

Identify just 10. Show us 10 locations where there is urgent need for a school, with an easy to convert insolvent hotel nearby. And by nearby I don’t mean somewhere around the same vague area. I mean somewhere that you’d choose to put the school, even if there was no insolvent hotel there.

Show us you could actually satisfy the priority need for new school buildings with your daft scheme.

You are also forgetting the possibility that if the market does turn then the school board involved will have an appreciating asset to sell in order to offset the cost of bulding or expanding a school in an area.

Oh, gawd, I can’t believe you just said that.

I take it you totally support the FF plan for bailing out the banks, then? Seeing as how you’ve effectively supported it with that statement.

Aha. Could you please elaborate on who the 'people who seem to value the opinions of developers' are in Ireland at the moment?

Indeed, the freely elected Government of the Irish people.

Where there is a need for a school building because pupils are currently in some depressing Fianna Fail inspired portakabin deal and there is a failed hotel development nearby this really is a no-brainer.

And the point is that this is likely to be such a rare occurrence as to be not worth bothering with.

We’d do better if the taxpayer just took whatever bit of cash gets dug out of the insolvency and spent it where school buildings are really needed.

[Mitsui]

Any hotel that is put into receivership or subject to a whinge from developers....

Definitely off-topic, Captain Con, but it just struck me while reading your original post - wouldn't this be a wonderful new collective noun for Irish developers - a whinge?

You know, like you have a gaggle of geese, a parliament of rooks, a herd of cows - why not a whinge of developers?

It would certainly suit the sounds that a few of the poor dears are making lately!

[kimble]

<[quote=Schuhart;2010305] Insolvent hotels are presumably located in locations that, in theory, guests would find easy to reach but, in practice, they didn’t reach. Both of those principles are miles away from being locations that schoolchildren will find easy to reach every day of the school year[QUOTE]>

I think you will find that most Hotels are built on the main roads.....most kids get to there overcrowded classrooms either by car or by bus...so it does not make any difference where the the location of the hotels are.

This is a good idea that the CAPTAIN CON has come up with...Why are you going out of your way to pick holes in it?? do you work for the Dept of Education or what??

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Schuhart;

Chronic overstatement of the issue, which ignores how it would happen that a hotel would be the obvious ‘another building’. Insolvent hotels are presumably located in locations that, in theory, guests would find easy to reach but, in practice, they didn’t reach.

Are there, or are there not empty and struggling hotels in catchment areas where there are schools struggling with old buildings? Or are you attempting to claim that there are no struggling/empty hotels within reach of the schools I mention anywhere in Ireland? This is an extremely weak objection.

Both of those principles are miles away from being locations that schoolchildren will find easy to reach every day of the school year.

That is one hell of a geographic generalisation. Ireland isn't Afghanistan, y'know (apart from Loughrea, obviously) and for you to imply there are no portakabin schools in the same area as a failing or failed hotel development anywhere in Ireland is a bit weird, frankly. Its a feature of the detritus of the Celtic Tiger that way too many hotels were built and only built because there was a tax concession on those developments and of course the mad notion that property values would keep heading skywards.

No, I’m caught up in the ramifications of the State throwing my good tax money after bad private investments.

Would you prefer the state wait a while and then have to rebuild or replace the entire school stock? Where do you think the money comes from for that only taxpayers pockets? Yet again you are fixated on the idea that I am trying to arrange a NAMA for these developers. No way. I want the properties taken at WELL below even today's market value. I want the state to make a profit and if the developers lose- tough. I want to see the taxpayer make hay while the sun ISN'T shining because they sure as hell didn't when the sun WAS shining!

Well stop wondering, because I’ll start wondering if you’re losing all grip on reality.

Ad hominem.

My only interest is in the exposure to the taxpayer. I’ve nothing to do with hotels. You are missing the very basic point that these hotels have gone out of business. What does that say about their location? Why is a bad location for a hotel automatically good for a school.

You are assuming the hotels are struggling because they were all built in a bad location. The reason these hotels have become white elephants is because they were regarded as a handy property investment while values were skyrocketing and there was encouragement to build all these unneeded hotels by way of a tax break. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the location. Take a look at the outskirts of Cork or Galway for example- or am I mistaken and is the Burren stacked now with medium size empty hotels?

There is if the alternative is worse. Your alternative is worse. Identify just 10. Show us 10 locations where there is urgent need for a school, with an easy to convert insolvent hotel nearby. And by nearby I don’t mean somewhere around the same vague area. I mean somewhere that you’d choose to put the school, even if there was no insolvent hotel there.

How many cities and towns are there in Ireland? Or could you send me a link to a google earth shot of all these hotels hidden away from any urban area? Were they all built on the Burren?

Hotels tend to be built within reach of airports, train stations or transport hubs of some kind. There are schools in EVERY city and town in Ireland.

Show us you could actually satisfy the priority need for new school buildings with your daft scheme.

Whats your idea for resolving the Portakabin schools problem at the moment?

Oh, gawd, I can’t believe you just said that.

I don't actually think you understand my suggestion. You seem terrified that I'm suggesting a NAMA style operation to rescue in the hotel developers. I am not. I'd take those hotels off them and they can swallow the hit on the valuation they are given. I want the state to recognise the opportunity here to acquire a whole load of easily convertible buildings at a fraction of the cost of building new schools or what they would have cost three or four years ago. Do you get it now?

I take it you totally support the FF plan for bailing out the banks, then?

Oh for f. sake. Would you ever get off the idea that I'm trying to bail out the developers- I'll make it simple for you. I THINK THE STATE SHOULD RIP THEM OFF. IS that simple enough?

Seeing as how you’ve effectively supported it with that statement. Indeed, the freely elected Government of the Irish people. And the point is that this is likely to be such a rare occurrence as to be not worth bothering with.

There is something wrong with your reading and comprehension skills.

We’d do better if the taxpayer just took whatever bit of cash gets dug out of the insolvency and spent it where school buildings are really needed.

And what would the state get out of a hotel insolvency? They don't owe any tax as many were built in the last ten years, within the tax 'holiday'. The only thing the govt might get is a penny in the pound towards the VAT or national insurance the bust owner owes the revenue. That'd be it.

That's be a classic Irish manouver alright- crumbling schools and newly built hotels with no guests. But put the hotels into administration and sit back and watch BOTH schools and hotels crumble?

You aren't Brian Lenihan, are you?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Definitely off-topic, Captain Con, but it just struck me while reading your original post - wouldn't this be a wonderful new collective noun for Irish developers - a whinge?

You know, like you have a gaggle of geese, a parliament of rooks, a herd of cows - why not a whinge of developers?

It would certainly suit the sounds that a few of the poor dears are making lately!

Dead right there. A Whinge of Developers, heh. Couple of years back it was their helicopters doing the whining. Now the helicopters are gone but the whine remains.

I wouldn't mind but these cheap little fake Irish thatcherites would have been appalled at any intervention in the 'free market' three or four years ago. Now they are lining up to whine for government money like the biggest bloated benefit thieves the country has ever seen.

You live by the free market? Then die by the free market.

[Mitsui]

I wouldn't mind but these cheap little fake Irish thatcherites would have been appalled at any intervention in the 'free market' three or four years ago.

This very much sticks in my craw too, and has done for a long time. But then the Irish interpretation of the term "free market", as far as an awful lot of Irish businesses were concerned, has always been one where said businesses are free to milk the consumer for shoddy goods and services.

So I guess in that sense our government does believe in the free market.

[Stroke]

Definitely off-topic, Captain Con, but it just struck me while reading your original post - wouldn't this be a wonderful new collective noun for Irish developers - a whinge?

You know, like you have a gaggle of geese, a parliament of rooks, a herd of cows - why not a whinge of developers?

It would certainly suit the sounds that a few of the poor dears are making lately!

A gluttony of developers
A greed of speculators
A drool of solicitors

There's lots of scope here for a thread......

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I can just imagine the reaction from Fianna Fail economic geniuses three or more years ago at the idea of state support or intervention for anything.

Suddenly now that the banks are threatening to show them what the downside of the free market is (bankruptcy, asset seizure, ruin) they are reborn socialists who say that taxpayers money must be used to bail them out 'for the good of the country'.

And as for their attitude towards anybody on state benefits or dole, well you can imagine.

And now they are screeching for dole for the developers in the billions. The next time I hear a Fianna Failer getting up on its hind legs to moan abou the welfare state he/she/it is in for a good earbashing about benefit thieves in suits.

[Utopian Hermit Monk]

Excellent suggestion, well worth exploring.

Rather than simply post it here, I encourage Captain Con to pass it on to the Dept. of Education & Science, as well as Opposition spokespersons on Education.

[Schuhart]

I think you will find that most Hotels are built on the main roads.....most kids get to there overcrowded classrooms either by car or by bus...so it does not make any difference where the the location of the hotels are.

Your statement it does not make any difference where the the location of the hotels are is so ludicrous that you’ve simply past beyond the point at which rational discussion can take place.

The problem is exactly as I’ve stated it. There is no reason why a bad location for a hotel should be a good location for a school.

This is a good idea that the CAPTAIN CON has come up with...Why are you going out of your way to pick holes in it??

Because its not a good idea. Because there are so many holes in it.

This is a bad idea idea that the CAPTAIN CON has come up with...Why are you going out of your way to support it??

do you work for the Dept of Education or what??

No, but I hope the Dept of Education would dismiss this ludicrous nonsense.

Are there, or are there not empty and struggling hotels in catchment areas where there are schools struggling with old buildings? Or are you attempting to claim that there are no struggling/empty hotels within reach of the schools I mention anywhere in Ireland? This is an extremely weak objection.

What I’m actually asking is for you to identify even ten locations where this is the case.

The fact that you are unable to do this is a very strong objection, and exposes your idea as superficially attractive nonsense.

Would you prefer the state wait a while and then have to rebuild or replace the entire school stock?

Chronic overstatement again. I’d prefer the State just used whatever money it had to best meet school building needs. I don’t see your silly suggestion helping, for the reasons already set out that you have not refuted.

Take a look at the outskirts of Cork or Galway for example- or am I mistaken and is the Burren stacked now with medium size empty hotels?

I’ve no idea where these insolvent hotels are located. Remember, you are the one who has to establish that they are close as makes no difference to where there’s an urgent need for new school buildings.

Hotels tend to be built within reach of airports, train stations or transport hubs of some kind.

So you’re suggesting that children will fly to school? Or travel there by Intercity rail? Children who can currently walk to a prefab will be taken by taxi down a motorway to school?

There are schools in EVERY city and town in Ireland.

Yeah, and the overwhelming bulk of them don’t have an insolvent hotel next door.

Whats your idea for resolving the Portakabin schools problem at the moment?

Not panicking by assuming any ludicrous idea is an improvement.

I want the state to recognise the opportunity here to acquire a whole load of easily convertible buildings at a fraction of the cost of building new schools or what they would have cost three or four years ago. Do you get it now?

I’ve got it all along. I want you to recognise that this opportunity does not exist.

Would you ever get off the idea that I'm trying to bail out the developers- I'll make it simple for you. I THINK THE STATE SHOULD RIP THEM OFF. IS that simple enough?

I’ve never suggested that you want to help developers. I’m just pointing out that this would be an implication of your inept and incompetent scheme.

The only thing the govt might get is a penny in the pound towards the VAT or national insurance the bust owner owes the revenue. That'd be it.

Yes, and the point is that would be at least worth something. Whereas the hotel isn’t.

That's be a classic Irish manouver alright- crumbling schools and newly built hotels with no guests. But put the hotels into administration and sit back and watch BOTH schools and hotels crumble?

The Irish manouver is your daft linkage of the two disconnected phenomenon. I’m reminded of that recent thread recommending that we put philosophy on the school curriculum, as so many Irish people are incapable of thinking.

Which leads to situations like this – you expending an awful lot of effort into defending a vagary that you thought up in two seconds.