Would NAMA Legislation Pass The Seanad?

[Factorem]

Assuming the NAMA legislation made it through the Dail, would it make it past the Seanad?

I for one will be making sure that I remember like and elephant the name of every single TD and Senator who votes for (or abstains from) the NAMA legislation.

[stonethrower]

Hard to see how it wouldn't pass if it gets that far. I would assume if bill got through Dail Greens have already signed up.

FF plus Greens would make 29.

FG + Lab + SF + University Inds = 26

That of course assumes that the likes of Fergal Quinn would vote against.

The wildcards are Harris and O'Malley but even if both voted against and all the others voted against then it would pass.

[KingKane]

Interesting those numbers don't add up to 60, who is missing. Also, if NAMA is finance bill then the Seanad can't vote it down, only delay I think.

[The Red Rose of Cork]

Interesting those numbers don't add up to 60, who is missing. Also, if NAMA is finance bill then the Seanad can't vote it down, only delay I think.

2 vacancies following death of Senator Tony Kett (FF) and election as MEP of Alan Kelly (Lab)

[fergalr]

Interesting those numbers don't add up to 60, who is missing. Also, if NAMA is finance bill then the Seanad can't vote it down, only delay I think.

True. Let's be clear, the Senate barely has the power to ask permission to go to the bathroom.

[stonethrower]

Hard to see how it wouldn't pass if it gets that far. I would assume if bill got through Dail Greens have already signed up.

FF plus Greens would make 29.

FG + Lab + SF + University Inds = 26

That of course assumes that the likes of Fergal Quinn would vote against.

The wildcards are Harris and O'Malley but even if both voted against and all the others voted against then it would pass.

Sorry got my original numbers wrong, FG + Lab + SF + Uni Indos = 27

If Harris and O'Malley were to vote against Govt (big if) then it would be 29. I would not be sure all University Independents would vote against Govt.

However I included Pat Moylan in the FF total, but I assume he doesn't vote except when vote is tied.

So it is possible that Govt could be defeated on these numbers FF/GP =28 All others =29
I am not sure what Harris has said on NAMA in recent times. And O'Malley does anyone know?

As Red Rose rightly pointed out there are 2 vacancies, but of course FF have the numbers to replace these, but when does that happen is the question.

Yes Seanad can only delay, but their role is being questioned and if they were to defeat NAMA legislation and send it back to Dail seeking changes, they might give people a reason to believe a second chamber does make a difference.

[corelli]

Interesting those numbers don't add up to 60, who is missing. Also, if NAMA is finance bill then the Seanad can't vote it down, only delay I think.

They could only delay it slightly. I presume it's an actual money bill?

[fergalr]

Yes Seanad can only delay, but their role is being questioned and if they were to defeat NAMA legislation and send it back to Dail seeking changes, they might give people a reason to believe a second chamber does make a difference.

BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN

Money Bills

Article 21

1. 1° Money Bills shall be initiated in Dáil Éireann only.

2° Every Money Bill passed by Dáil Éireann shall be sent to Seanad Éireann for its recommendations.

2. 1° Every Money Bill sent to Seanad Éireann for its recommendations shall, at the expiration of a period not longer than twenty-one days after it shall have been sent to Seanad Éireann, be returned to Dáil Éireann, which may accept or reject all or any of the recommendations of Seanad Éireann.

2° If such Money Bill is not returned by Seanad Éireann to Dáil Éireann within such twenty-one days or is returned within such twenty-one days with recommendations which Dáil Éireann does not accept, it shall be deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the said twenty-one days.

Article 22

1. 1° A Money Bill means a Bill which contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the following matters, namely, the imposition, repeal, remission, alteration or regulation of taxation; the imposition for the payment of debt or other financial purposes of charges on public moneys or the variation or repeal of any such charges; supply; the appropriation, receipt, custody, issue or audit of accounts of public money; the raising or guarantee of any loan or the repayment thereof; matters subordinate and incidental to these matters or any of them.

2° In this definition the expressions "taxation", "public money" and "loan" respectively do not include any taxation, money or loan raised by local authorities or bodies for local purposes.

2. 1° The Chairman of Dáil Éireann shall certify any Bill which, in his opinion, is a Money Bill to be a Money Bill, and his certificate shall, subject to the subsequent provisions of this section, be final and conclusive.

2° Seanad Éireann, by a resolution, passed at a sitting at which not less than thirty members are present, may request the President to refer the question whether the Bill is or is not a Money Bill to a Committee of Privileges.

3° If the President after consultation with the Council of State decides to accede to the request he shall appoint a Committee of Privileges consisting of an equal number of members of Dáil Éireann and of Seanad Éireann and a Chairman who shall be a Judge of the Supreme Court: these appointments shall be made after consultation with the Council of State. In the case of an equality of votes but not otherwise the Chairman shall be entitled to vote.

4° The President shall refer the question to the Committee of Privileges so appointed and the Committee shall report its decision thereon to the President within twenty-one days after the day on which the Bill was sent to Seanad Éireann.

5° The decision of the Committee shall be final and conclusive.

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Time for Consideration of Bills

Article 23

1. This Article applies to every Bill passed by Dáil Éireann and sent to Seanad Éireann other than a Money Bill or a Bill the time for the consideration of which by Seanad Éireann shall have been abridged under Article 24 of this Constitution.

1° Whenever a Bill to which this Article applies is within the stated period defined in the next following sub-section either rejected by Seanad Éireann or passed by Seanad Éireann with amendments to which Dáil Éireann does not agree or is neither passed (with or without amendment) nor rejected by Seanad Éireann within the stated period, the Bill shall, if Dáil Éireann so resolves within one hundred and eighty days after the expiration of the stated period be deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas on the day on which the resolution is passed.

2° The stated period is the period of ninety days commencing on the day on which the Bill is first sent by Dáil Éireann to Seanad Éireann or any longer period agreed upon in respect of the Bill by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

2. 1° The preceding section of this Article shall apply to a Bill which is initiated in and passed by Seanad Éireann, amended by Dáil Éireann, and accordingly deemed to have been initiated in Dáil Éireann.

2° For the purpose of this application the stated period shall in relation to such a Bill commence on the day on which the Bill is first sent to Seanad Éireann after having been amended by Dáil Éireann.

Article 24

1. If and whenever on the passage by Dáil Éireann of any Bill, other than a Bill expressed to be a Bill containing a proposal to amend the Constitution, the Taoiseach certifies by messages in writing addressed to the President and to the Chairman of each House of the Oireachtas that, in the opinion of the Government, the Bill is urgent and immediately necessary for the preservation of the public peace and security, or by reason of the existence of a public emergency, whether domestic or international, the time for the consideration of such Bill by Seanad Éireann shall, if Dáil Éireann so resolves and if the President, after consultation with the Council of State, concurs, be abridged to such period as shall be specified in the resolution.

2. Where a Bill, the time for the consideration of which by Seanad Éireann has been abridged under this Article,

(a) is, in the case of a Bill which is not a Money Bill, rejected by Seanad Éireann or passed by Seanad Éireann with amendments to which Dáil Éireann does not agree or neither passed nor rejected by Seanad Éireann, or

(b) is, in the case of a Money Bill, either returned by Seanad Éireann to Dáil Éireann with recommendations which Dáil Éireann does not accept or is not returned by Seanad Éireann to Dáil Éireann,

within the period specified in the resolution, the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas at the expiration of that period.

3. When a Bill the time for the consideration of which by Seanad Éireann has been abridged under this Article becomes law it shall remain in force for a period of ninety days from the date of its enactment and no longer unless, before the expiration of that period, both Houses shall have agreed that such law shall remain in force for a longer period and the longer period so agreed upon shall have been specified in resolutions passed by both Houses.

[Murra]

They could only delay it slightly. I presume it's an actual money bill?

So is it a money bill - or not?

[cyberianpan]

They could only delay it slightly. I presume it's an actual money bill?

As of one month ago Nama was definitively not a money bill

However this amendment which allows a tax rather than levy has me puzzled

cYp