Cull of senior civil servants

[birthday]

Senior civil servants have colluded in the destruction of the Irish economy. From Benchmarking, de-centralisation, ludicrously high pay rates across senior public service, absent financial regulation, defence of Ceann Comhairle expenses the hand of senior civil servants is to be seen.
It is not acceptable to simply claim that these policies were initiated by FF/PD ministers. All along the way detailed policy was formulated and implemented by senior civil servants who had the option of resigning or at the very least of putting their opposition in writing.
A whole swathe of senior civil servants need to be demoted to clerical officer grade unless they can PROVE that they have NOT colluded and indeed formulated the destruction of the Irish economy. They would still have jobs-only at clerical officer level.

[Jock_the_Waster]

Senior civil servants have colluded in the destruction of the Irish economy. From Benchmarking, de-centralisation, ludicrously high pay rates across senior public service, absent financial regulation, defence of Ceann Comhairle expenses the hand of senior civil servants is to be seen.
It is not acceptable to simply claim that these policies were initiated by FF/PD ministers. All along the way detailed policy was formulated and implemented by senior civil servants who had the option of resigning or at the very least of putting their opposition in writing.
A whole swathe of senior civil servants need to be demoted to clerical officer grade unless they can PROVE that they have NOT colluded and indeed formulated the destruction of the Irish economy. They would still have jobs-only at clerical officer level.

+1

[Conor]

It is not acceptable to simply claim that these policies were initiated by FF/PD ministers.

Why not?

[BodyofEvidence]

True Economics: Economics 12/08/2009: An afront to our democracy

So Mr Carroll's case has been now refused the examinership by the Supreme Court. Welcome news - at least there is a remnant of sanity left in this country and it is the Judiciary. But the telling reaction to the highest court in the land verdict came from the Department of Finance. In a blatant disregard of the Supreme Court powers, a mere civil servant-run lowly department (that is but a fraction of one of the three pillars of the state) has in effect told the Supreme Court (the highest body of another pillar of this state) to pack off.

In a response penned, most likely well in advance of the Supreme Court decision, the DofF stated that (quoting the Irish Times report - here): "The Department of Finance rejected any suggestion that the Government’s plans for Nama were affected by the court ruling. “It makes no difference – Nama will proceed as planned,” said a spokesman for the Minister for Finance. “We’ve always made clear that Nama will operate in line with EU Commission guidelines, which set out the use of the long-term economic value measurement.”

So Supreme Court telling the nation that, in agreement with the Commercial Court, its assessment of Mr Carroll's assets is that these assets are not worth even 15-20% of loans advanced to the company, 'makes no difference' to the NAMA. We will still pay Euro60bn for the same assets.

[Wakeupcall]

Indeed +1

[InReality]

Dept of Finance was always going to say that

FF/PD and the irish voters were the problem.

Blaming civil servants is a distraction from this.

[adamirer]

Senior civil servants have colluded in the destruction of the Irish economy. From Benchmarking, de-centralisation, ludicrously high pay rates across senior public service, absent financial regulation, defence of Ceann Comhairle expenses the hand of senior civil servants is to be seen.
It is not acceptable to simply claim that these policies were initiated by FF/PD ministers. All along the way detailed policy was formulated and implemented by senior civil servants who had the option of resigning or at the very least of putting their opposition in writing.
A whole swathe of senior civil servants need to be demoted to clerical officer grade unless they can PROVE that they have NOT colluded and indeed formulated the destruction of the Irish economy. They would still have jobs-only at clerical officer level.

OMG, I'm sorry, but that is one of the most incredibly stupid posts I have ever read on this site and I'm stunned at the names of those 'thanking' it! Are you utterly mad???

There is no 'collusion' - there is doing your duty. Page 1, line 1 of any CS guidebook
Civil Servants served at the whim of the Minister.
Civil Servants are not elected
Civil Servants do not dictate policy - the Minister is the only one empowered to do so.
Civil Servants do not contravene the wishes of the Minister unless ther eis an illegal act.

It doesnt matter if a CS thinks whats being done is incredibly stupid, wrong, misguided, a financial disaster waiting to happen (etc), we are obliged to carry out our duties. Thats why you have an elected Government - the will of the people. I personally have more than a dozen times shook my head in disbelief at the course of action in my own area/brief - but c'est la vie! You do yuor duty and the duty is to give the Minister an informed choice.

Most of the civil service recognised that Decentralisation was a collossal political clusterf... but we had to go along with it. The Sec Gen in my dept found out the night befoe the budget and strongly argued against it, but was put in his place. He didn't get to make the decision - the Government do.

Opinions are given clearly to Minsters in such matters, that you dont see them doesnt mean they don't exist. I am astonished at the lack of understanding of how it works.. I mean seriously, resign because you think decentralisation is a joke? are you for real?

Get it clear, civil servants are told - give me options on this.
They draw up some. Most get whittled away by some lacky FF cllr serving as a Ministerial Policy Advisor (now THERES a scandal) and then presented to the Minister depending on what type of political bottle he/she has and the Minister (or political advisor) chooses what to do.

I've worked under 4 Ministers now and not one of them has been closed to suggestions, but every single one of them dictated what was done and took the option best suited to them, even if it wasn't the recommended course of action.

They really need to start teaching civics properly in school...

[DCon]

OMG, I'm sorry, but that is one of the most incredibly stupid posts I have ever read on this site and I'm stunned at the names of those 'thanking' it! Are you utterly mad???

There is no 'collusion' - there is doing your duty. Page 1, line 1 of any CS guidebook
Civil Servants served at the whim of the Minister.
Civil Servants are not elected
Civil Servants do not dictate policy - the Minister is the only one empowered to do so.
Civil Servants do not contravene the wishes of the Minister unless ther eis an illegal act.

It doesnt matter if a CS thinks whats being done is incredibly stupid, wrong, misguided, a financial disaster waiting to happen (etc), we are obliged to carry out our duties. Thats why you have an elected Government - the will of the people. I personally have more than a dozen times shook my head in disbelief at the course of action in my own area/brief - but c'est la vie! You do yuor duty and the duty is to give the Minister an informed choice.

Most of the civil service recognised that Decentralisation was a collossal political clusterf... but we had to go along with it. The Sec Gen in my dept found out the night befoe the budget and strongly argued against it, but was put in his place. He didn't get to make the decision - the Government do.

Opinions are given clearly to Minsters in such matters, that you dont see them doesnt mean they don't exist. I am astonished at the lack of understanding of how it works.. I mean seriously, resign because you think decentralisation is a joke? are you for real?

Get it clear, civil servants are told - give me options on this.
They draw up some. Most get whittled away by some lacky FF cllr serving as a Ministerial Policy Advisor (now THERES a scandal) and then presented to the Minister depending on what type of political bottle he/she has and the Minister (or political advisor) chooses what to do.

I've worked under 4 Ministers now and not one of them has been closed to suggestions, but every single one of them dictated what was done and took the option best suited to them, even if it wasn't the recommended course of action.

They really need to start teaching civics properly in school...

You have no problem at complaining about a "pension levy".

If you complained half as loudly about the dimwit TD's and how they screw everything up we might not be in this mess. You are at the front and get to see what happens. As long as the pay and pensions were increasing you collectively said nothing to anyone.

[Macy]

There's a reason politicians love "Yes Minister". It's not because it is close to the reality, but it absolves them of blame when things go wrong. Rather than blame the Minister responsible, a significant proportion of the electorate will rattle on about Senior Civil Servants as if they can overule a Minister.

[cyberianpan]

OMG, I'm sorry, but that is one of the most incredibly stupid posts I have ever read on this site and I'm stunned at the names of those 'thanking' it! Are you utterly mad???

There is no 'collusion' - there is doing your duty. Page 1, line 1 of any CS guidebook
Civil Servants served at the whim of the Minister.
Civil Servants are not elected
Civil Servants do not dictate policy - the Minister is the only one empowered to do so.
Civil Servants do not contravene the wishes of the Minister unless ther eis an illegal act.

It doesnt matter if a CS thinks whats being done is incredibly stupid, wrong, misguided, a financial disaster waiting to happen (etc), we are obliged to carry out our duties. Thats why you have an elected Government - the will of the people. I personally have more than a dozen times shook my head in disbelief at the course of action in my own area/brief - but c'est la vie! You do yuor duty and the duty is to give the Minister an informed choice.

Most of the civil service recognised that Decentralisation was a collossal political clusterf... but we had to go along with it. The Sec Gen in my dept found out the night befoe the budget and strongly argued against it, but was put in his place. He didn't get to make the decision - the Government do.

Opinions are given clearly to Minsters in such matters, that you dont see them doesnt mean they don't exist. I am astonished at the lack of understanding of how it works.. I mean seriously, resign because you think decentralisation is a joke? are you for real?

Get it clear, civil servants are told - give me options on this.
They draw up some. Most get whittled away by some lacky FF cllr serving as a Ministerial Policy Advisor (now THERES a scandal) and then presented to the Minister depending on what type of political bottle he/she has and the Minister (or political advisor) chooses what to do.

I've worked under 4 Ministers now and not one of them has been closed to suggestions, but every single one of them dictated what was done and took the option best suited to them, even if it wasn't the recommended course of action.

They really need to start teaching civics properly in school...

If my boss asks me to do a loony thing which will likely fail: I don't do it.

Civil servants have a lovely time producing policy papers, vacillating over what colour font to use ... in the UK they have balls and are known for challenging their ministers & falling on their swords when they fail

Civil servants here show little if any appetite for initiative / risk taking / decision making

It's fine to blame the minister - in the Department of Finance alone there are 76 staff at principal officer (TD equivalent rank) or above - trying to dodge the blame is not on anymore - either civil servants use their abilities - or we don't need them.

cYp