NAMA:It will be a crime to REPORT concealment of assets

[NapperTandy]

NAMA: it will be a crime to REPORT concealing of assets • thepropertypin.com

The background: a whole load of property developers now have little hope of their development companies being able to meet repayment obligations. More than that, most developers have given personal guarantees over their entire wealth and could face enforcement action that would either severely diminish their net worth or put them into bankruptcy.

It must be very, very tempting to salt away assets - either in Ireland or overseas - to avoid making payments under a personal guarantee.

And so far, this is all very familiar reading for visitors to the Pin.

Along comes NAMA...

The NAMA Bill provides for only one criminal offence. Section 7 imposes, on indictment, a 3 year jail term and/or a €50k fine for any person who discloses confidential information in violation of Section 171.


Who is under the obligation not to disclose confidential information? Basically, under Section 171(2), anyone who has anything to do with NAMA, including service providers.

So far, this is all fair enough. Lots of honest decent people will have their loans transferred to NAMA and it would not be fair for all sorts of confidential information to spill out from NAMA.

Onto whistleblowing then. What are the exceptions to maintaining the duty of confidentiality? Naturally, there are exceptions to allow NAMA to function and to give evidence to a court, Tribunal or the Oireachtas.

But apart from that, the only way someone under a duty of confidentiality may disclose information is if they do so to the Gardai, Revenue or 3 other state bodies AND if the information in question (not taken together with other information) gives rise to a reasonable suspicion that someone has committed a criminal offence or "contravened a law relating to taxation, companies, the regulation of financial services, or competition". [Section 171(6)]

Where does this leave anyone connected to NAMA who uncovers clear proof of a NAMA-debtor concealing assets or otherwise dealing with them in a way to avoid making payments to NAMA? Well, under the NAMA Bill itself, the only criminal offence is that of breaching the duty of confidentiality; concealing or disposing of assets will not be an offence. And concealing assets or disposing of them would not seem to be a breach of any of the categories of non-criminal law set out in Section 171(6).

The only conclusion I can draw is that it will definitely be a criminal offence, under the NAMA Act, for anyone connected to NAMA - including the CEO! - to blow the whistle on debtors hiding assets to frustrate the enforcement of personal guarantees.

At the same time, it will not be a criminal offence to hide assets for that purpose. All NAMA will be empowered to do, under Section 178 of the Bill, is apply to court to have a disposal declared void. (And that will be of limited practical use if the transaction happened outside the state or the proceeds have been moved abroad.)

I'm a solicitor and I'm pretty sure that's a correct reading of what's involved.

This is a personal opinion from a solicitor. I've edited the full version down, the full version is available on the link above. I'm too shocked for words, I can't believe they are inserting this into the NAMA legislation. What do the Greens think of this? Do they agree with it?

Mods: the material is not copyright.

[Question R24U]

What of the Newspapers who publish any leaks - can they rely on madam editors' Supreme Court case?

[SPN]

I'm too shocked for words, I can't believe they are inserting this into the NAMA legislation. What do the Greens think of this? Do they agree with it?

Greens I have spoken with are looking for more transparency in how NAMA will work, above anything else.

Personally, I am pushing for there to be no (or minimal) provisions for Ministerial Regulations. Every change to the operation of NAMA should require a Dáil vote (you never know but Ruairi Quinn might be Minister for Finance again, so we don't want him to be able to "look after" Lochlainn at our expense).

We also need some pro-whistleblower sections in the legislation when it is written. I think it should be mandatory, on pain of severe sanctions (mandatory 5 year jail term?), for whistleblowers to come forward if any funny business is going on, or any future Government is trying to look after their Donors at our expense.

[Question R24U]

Greens I have spoken with are looking for more transparency in how NAMA will work, above anything else.

Personally, I am pushing for there to be no (or minimal) provisions for Ministerial Regulations. Every change to the operation of NAMA should require a Dáil vote (you never know but Ruairi Quinn might be Minister for Finance again, so we don't want him to be able to "look after" Lochlainn at our expense).

We also need some pro-whistleblower sections in the legislation when it is written. I think it should be mandatory, on pain of severe sanctions (mandatory 5 year jail term?), for whistleblowers to come forward if any funny business is going on, or any future Government is trying to look after their Donors at our expense.

I can readily understand a ff person supporting it but for a Green to support a bank and developer bailout which will increasing the concreting of the country is breathtaking. This makes Shannon, tara, bus reductions and special needs cuts appear to be solid Green Principles.

[SPN]

I can readily understand a ff person supporting it but for a Green to support a bank and developer bailout which will increasing the concreting of the country is breathtaking.

For the 75th million time: What do you propose as an alternative?

The only game in Town, that I am aware of, is a NAMA (or an AMA). The issue we need to focus on is how it operates.

Or do you have a better plan?

This makes Shannon, tara, bus reductions and special needs cuts appear to be solid Green Principles.

I would have expected you to be a little more creative than to have to trot out those hackneyed misrepresentations.

[Question R24U]

For the 75th million time: What do you propose as an alternative?

The only game in Town, that I am aware of, is a NAMA (or an AMA). The issue we need to focus on is how it operates.

Or do you have a better plan?




I would have expected you to be a little more creative than to have to trot out those hackneyed misrepresentations.

A better plan? Let me think, nationalise Bank of Ireland and let the others take their chances ie merge, be bought by someone who judges what they are worth having regard to market value assessment of their Assets and Liabilities. The bank quarantee will then end and a rushed gamble is over.

As for hackneyed misreps Tara and Shannon were before your time but cutting bus services, cutting special needs and now bailing out developers are all on your watch. The Greens have even had independent economists in to advise them so they are making an informed choice. There is no escaping from this decision if they go through with it.

Nama is about covering up a property bubble dressed up as stabilising the banking system by adding 90bn to the national debt and hoping againist hope that a new 'sustainable' property bubble comes along in the next 7 years so we get our money back. Protecting whistleblowers and allowing transparency flies in the face of why Nama has to be established.

On your heads be it...

[Tressell]

Greens I have spoken with are looking for more transparency in how NAMA will work, above anything else.

Personally, I am pushing for there to be no (or minimal) provisions for Ministerial Regulations. Every change to the operation of NAMA should require a Dáil vote (you never know but Ruairi Quinn might be Minister for Finance again, so we don't want him to be able to "look after" Lochlainn at our expense).

We also need some pro-whistleblower sections in the legislation when it is written. I think it should be mandatory, on pain of severe sanctions (mandatory 5 year jail term?), for whistleblowers to come forward if any funny business is going on, or any future Government is trying to look after their Donors at our expense.

None so Blind.
1 You seek Dail Votes yet your Party supports the use of the guillotine for major Legislation.
2 Your worried about Ruairi Quinn yet your Party supports the worst Minister for Finance this country has ever known as Taoiseach.
3 Your worried about future Govts. and their prospective Donors when your Party sits beside the most corrupt Party in our Nation's history.
4 Your a fool.

[SPN]

A better plan? Let me think, nationalise Bank of Ireland and let the others take their chances ie merge, be bought by someone who judges what they are worth having regard to market value assessment of their Assets and Liabilities. The bank quarantee will then end and a rushed gamble is over.

"Let the others take their chances"

With the greatest respect, how do you propose to pay Sam Dennigan's suppliers and drivers if the Banks have "taken their chances"?

Allowing the Banking sector to collapse with a "let them take their chances" attitude would destroy the Country, our economy, and our society.

As for hackneyed misreps Tara and Shannon were before your time but cutting bus services, cutting special needs and now bailing out developers are all on your watch. The Greens have even had independent economists in to advise them so they are making an informed choice. There is no escaping from this decision if they go through with it.

The decision on Tara was made before we went into Government, and was supported by FG and Labour.

The Shannon issue was dealt with as much as was possible, and more than would have been possible if FG were in Government.

The Greens did NOT cut Bus services. We stopped CIE getting yet another off-the-wall increase in the taxpayer funded subsidy. They have been told to sort themselves out, and provide a cost-effective service, or else.

Nama is about covering up a property bubble dressed up as stabilising the banking system by adding 90bn to the national debt and hoping againist hope that a new 'sustainable' property bubble comes along in the next 7 years so we get our money back. Protecting whistleblowers and allowing transparency flies in the face of why Nama has to be established.

The €90 Billion is ALREADY part of the National Debt. The people voted for it when they voted for FF, FG and Labour in 2002 and 2004.

The "sustainable property bubble" isn't going to happen, at least as long as John Gormley is in DOEHLG. What happens when the bought-and-paid-for Partys get back control of the Custom House is another days work.

On your heads be it...

We took this on to get change implemented, not to be liked.

I appreciate that that is the wrong way around in Irish Politics, but then look at the scale of the disaster that being liked, and not getting change implemented has brought us to.

[SPN]

None so Blind.
1 You seek Dail Votes yet your Party supports the use of the guillotine for major Legislation.

You support a Party that does nothing but Grandstand. No policies, no vision, and you continue to pretend you won't go into Government with FF after the next Election.

2 Your worried about Ruairi Quinn yet your Party supports the worst Minister for Finance this country has ever known as Taoiseach.

I brought a major issue to a senior Labour TD a couple of years ago, and he dismissed me with "The Civil Servants would never allow that to happen". They did. Just like they allowed the Brigid McCole affair to happen while Labour were in Government.

3 Your worried about future Govts. and their prospective Donors when your Party sits beside the most corrupt Party in our Nation's history.

Look on the good side: If we weren't sitting beside them, Labour would be.

You should thank us

4 Your a fool.

But shur everyone knows that

[Question R24U]

You can try and spin that crap but no one believes it. The only people who support Nama are ff, the British government and the IMF.

Do you think you could persuade a Green special delegate conference to approve it with that effort?