Civil Servants and the new Pay Agreement...

[bobbysands81]

Any Civil Servants on here? What do you think of the new pay agreement?

Personally I think it's terrible, open recruitment at HEO, AP and PO for approx 20% is going to be a disaster for the provision of services to the public. Civil Servants will be barred from entering these competitions. The Govt have failed with decentralisation so this is there way of filling senior management positions that they mightn't be able to fill otherwise cos of their lies over the amount of people wishing to decentralise and they haven't a hope of filling all the places that need filling.

It seems there may also be more work outsourced from the Civil Service to outside agencies, like what's happening with the Driving Instructors.

There's also talk of having to work unsocialable hours for no extra gain.

I do think that the pay increase of 10% is very generous if taken on it's own but for what we're giving up it's a disgrace.

[cyberianpan]

>open recruitment at HEO, AP and PO for approx 20% is going to be a disaster for the provision of services to the public.

Do private companies "ban" civil servants from applying for senior jobs ?

There's also talk of having to work unsocialable hours for no extra gain.

:

I do think that the pay increase of 10%

Mnay industries don't take extra pay for working say Sundays, it is factored in to overall pay & your decision to work in such a place. To provide "public services" , surely more thought will have to be given to working outside 09:30-16:30 Mon-Fri ?

cYp

[Dubliner]

Do private companies "ban" civil servants from applying for senior jobs ?

Yes.
Firstly, it's a condition of some consultancy contracts that CS staff in the contracting department cannot be hired by the contractors.

Secondly, the government is introducing laws that would prevent CS staff from defecting (with their skills) to posts in private industry where they could use those skills.

Thirdly, CS pensions are not portable. You leave, you lose it.

So staff are 'locked-in' & promotion opportunities (for those in Dublin) are zero. New work is given to contractors.

Maybe they're hoping to white-wall people into leaving and save the pension.

[cyberianpan]

Do private companies "ban" civil servants from applying for senior jobs ?

Yes.
Firstly, it's a condition of some consultancy contracts that CS staff in the contracting department cannot be hired by the contractors.

This makes sense, quite similar to both "No poaching" & "non compete" clauses in the private sector. I'm locked in by both

Secondly, the government is introducing laws that would prevent CS staff from defecting (with their skills) to posts in private industry where they could use those skills.

Is this an absoloute ban or a cooling off period ? I could understand a cool-off to avoid conflicts of interest etc.

Thirdly, CS pensions are not portable. You leave, you lose it.
[quote:2td38tfs]

Fair enough that you lose a defined benefit pension (put politely they ain't portable in priavte sector either cos they make no sense) but they should at least make as if for equivalent to back filling a contributary at say 12% p/a


[quote:2td38tfs]
So staff are 'locked-in' & promotion opportunities (for those in Dublin) are zero. New work is given to contractors.
.

[/quote:2td38tfs][/quote:2td38tfs]

The CS promotion & increment procedures are bonkers, unions fault on that one.

This is all reasonably interesting, looks like fun negotiations, rather wish they'd take place behind closed doors.

cYp

[Salthill]

There has nominally been open recruitment for the top positions for quite some time, but it just doesn't happen and the same will be true for the middle management grades.

As for the downsides of the pension, most civil and public servants I know, and that would be a huge number, accept that it is one of the main benefits of the job. Forgive me for being cynical, but the 'downsides' of the pension have come out a lot more since research suggested that it was worth a significant amount to public servants in comparisons with the private sector.

If there is a desire to deal with these, then why not get that the public service unions table a demand for personal pensions, with a separate distinct pension fund which could be administered by nominees of the workers contributing. This would require a big up-front amount, which could be taken from the Pension Reserve Fund. Radical, but addresses this problem. Civil servants in particular would then be in a position to leave if not satisfied with promotional opportunities - something everyone else does as part of daily life.

In light of the contrary in today's IT by Mark Coleman about the direction of the economy, does their come a point where the pay agreements might kill the goose, etc? Don't know enough about growth projections and the exact structure of public spending growth to say, but most who do not have complete jobe security are likely to be less sympathetic.

May I say that I'm not one of those who believes our civil servants are wasters - I worked in a Dept once with some very hard-working brilliant people. In fact, I always believed that the ability of the system to reward good work was limited by the way in which people who were, to be charitable, doing as little as they could manipulate through the flexi-clock, were always untouchable an unfireable.

One of the bad things in discussing civil service reform/any changes in the service is the way in which those sugesting changes tend to be immediately attacked as Thatcherite barbarians.

[jerryp]

Do private companies "ban" civil servants from applying for senior jobs ?

Yes.
Firstly, it's a condition of some consultancy contracts that CS staff in the contracting department cannot be hired by the contractors.

Secondly, the government is introducing laws that would prevent CS staff from defecting (with their skills) to posts in private industry where they could use those skills.

Thirdly, CS pensions are not portable. You leave, you lose it.

So staff are 'locked-in' & promotion opportunities (for those in Dublin) are zero. New work is given to contractors.

Maybe they're hoping to white-wall people into leaving and save the pension.

If you leave after 5 years service or more,is it not the case that your pension is preserved,ie payable when you reach 60. Laws about going to private industry : I don't think that's quite the case,probably in breach of free movement of labour laws.

[Salthill]

It is payable, but not portable - a problem which faces many. It is a system designed solely in the interests of those who stay.

Ethics requirements bascally covers this and it is largely a red-herring. Only a handful of people jump to related jobs, and then generally only at the top

[irishpeoplearewhingers]

These are great reforms. Civil servants are pampered and are far too powerful as an interest group. The only way that these reforms could be better is if they included a pay-freeze and allowed for the easy sacking of incompetent do-nothings. The public sector is a bottomless pit that eats up tax money and produces very little in return- you people need more than a few timid reforms.

[ibis]

Do private companies "ban" civil servants from applying for senior jobs ?

Yes.
Firstly, it's a condition of some consultancy contracts that CS staff in the contracting department cannot be hired by the contractors.

I seem to remember that being brought in to prevent higher CS from arranging comfortable contracts and in return being hired by the contractors at high salaries. There was a case about 10 years ago, although I forget the details, where several CS who had negotiated the terms of the contract then left en masse to join the contractor.

Also, this is, I think, a Government stipulation.

Secondly, the government is introducing laws that would prevent CS staff from defecting (with their skills) to posts in private industry where they could use those skills.

Yes, but that's a government stipulation again.

Thirdly, CS pensions are not portable. You leave, you lose it.

So staff are 'locked-in' & promotion opportunities (for those in Dublin) are zero. New work is given to contractors.

Maybe they're hoping to white-wall people into leaving and save the pension.

That one is also a govt stipulation.

Contractors, of course, are easier to hire and fire. Even when you pay them a lot more than a CS, you still only have to employ them while you need them.

[birthday]

Any Civil Servants on here? What do you think of the new pay agreement?

Personally I think it's terrible, open recruitment at HEO, AP and PO for approx 20% is going to be a disaster for the provision of services to the public.

Open recruitement for CS- a disaster. Just imagine the thought of it. What adisgrace - a disaster. The world is being turned on its head!
What will they think of next?