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Thread: Irish Gay Migration

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach View Post
    I hope they never pin down all the gay genes because bigots with eugenic-tendencies would try to use it to eliminate homosexuality altogether, meaning that the remaining gay population would eventually become quite lonely.
    That's a fair point. Happens now with Downs Syndrome.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by rant_and_rave View Post
    And the scientific evidence for this is?
    Only the biological evidence for homosexuality in generaL:
    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia.org
    Twin studies Researchers have traditionally used twin studies to try to isolate genetic influences from environmental or other influences. One common type of twin study compares identical twins (known as monozygotic or "MZ twins") who both have a particular trait to non-identical or fraternal twins (known as dizygotic or "DZ twins") with that same trait. Since identical twins have the same genetic makeup (genotype) while non-identical twins share an average of 50% of their genes, a difference between these types of twins provides evidence of a genetic component. For example, if a high percentage of identical twins both have red hair (while a low percentage of non-identical twins both have red hair), that suggests that red hair has a genetic basis. On the other hand, if identical twins share a characteristic just as often as fraternal twins (such as love of music), that suggests that there is not a genetic basis for that trait.
    A number of twin studies have attempted this kind of isolation. As Bearman and Bruckner (2002)[6] describe it, early studies concentrated on small, select samples, which showed very high genetic influences; however, they were also criticized for non-representative selection of their subjects.[7] Later studies, performed on increasingly representative samples, showed much lesser concordance among MZ twins, although still significantly larger than among DZ twins.
    For example, a recent meta-study by Hershberger (2001)[8] compares the results of eight different twin studies: among those, all but two showed MZ twins having much higher concordance of sexual orientation than DZ twins, suggesting a non-negligible genetic component. Two additional examples: Bailey and Pillard (1991) in a study of gay twins found that 52% of monozygotic (MZ) brothers and 22% of the dizygotic (DZ) twins were concordant for homosexuality.[9] Also, Bailey, Dunne and Martin (2000) used the Australian twin registry to obtain a sample of 4,901 twins.[10] Self reported zygosity, sexual attraction, fantasy and behaviours were assessed by questionnaire and zygosity was serologically checked when in doubt. MZ twin concordance for homosexuality was found to be 30%. Averaging over all studies suggests that roughly 50 percent of the variance in sexual orientation can be attributed to inherited factors.
    A recent study of all adult twins in Sweden (more than 7,600 twins)[11] found that same-sex behavior was explained by both heritable factors and individual-specific environmental sources (such as prenatal environment, experience with illness and trauma, as well as peer groups, and sexual experiences), while influences of shared-environment variables such as familial environment and societal attitudes had a weaker, but significant effect. Women showed a statistically non-significant trend to weaker influence of hereditary effects, while men showed no effect of shared environmental effects. The use of all adult twins in Sweden was designed to address the criticism of volunteer studies, in which a potential bias towards participation by gay twin may influence the results (see below).
    “ Overall, the environment shared by twins (including familial and societal attitudes) explained 0-17% of the choice of sexual partner, genetic factors 18-39% and the unique environment 61-66%. The individual's unique environment includes, for example, circumstances during pregnancy and childbirth, physical and psychological trauma (e.g., accidents, violence, and disease), peer groups, and sexual experiences. [...] In men, genetic effects explained .34–.39 of the variance, the shared environment .00, and the individual-specific environment .61–.66 of the variance. Corresponding estimates among women were .18–.19 for genetic factors, .16–.17 for shared environmental, and 64–.66 for unique environmental factors.
    Criticisms

    Twin studies have received a number of criticisms including self-selection bias where homosexuals with gay siblings are more likely to volunteer for studies. Nonetheless, it is possible to conclude that, given the difference in sexuality in so many sets of identical twins (who are genetically identical, and shared the same fetal environment), sexual orientation cannot be purely caused by genetics.[12]
    Another issue is the recent finding that even monozygotic twins can be different and there is a mechanism which might account for monozygotic twins being discordant for homosexuality. Gringas and Chen (2001) describe a number of mechanisms which can lead to differences between monozygotic twins, the most relevant here being chorionicity and amniocity.[13] Dichorionic twins potentially have different hormonal environments and receive maternal blood from separate placenta. Monoamniotic twins share a hormonal environment, but can suffer from the 'twin to twin transfusion syndrome' in which one twin is "relatively stuffed with blood and the other exsanguinated".[14] If one twin receives less testosterone and the other more, this could result in different levels of brain masculinisation.


    Chromosome linkage studies
    Chromosome linkage studies of sexual orientation have indicated the presence of multiple contributing genetic factors throughout the genome. In 1993, Dean Hamer and colleagues published findings from a linkage analysis of a sample of 76 gay brothers and their families.[15] Hamer et al. found that the gay men had more gay male uncles and cousins on the maternal side of the family than on the paternal side. Gay brothers who showed this maternal pedigree were then tested for X chromosome linkage, using twenty-two markers on the X chromosome to test for similar alleles. In another finding, thirty-three of the forty sibling pairs tested were found to have similar alleles in the distal region of Xq28, which was significantly higher than the expected rates of 50% for fraternal brothers. This was popularly (but inaccurately) dubbed as the 'gay gene' in the media, causing significant controversy.
    A later analysis by Hu et al. replicated and refined these findings. This study revealed that 67% of gay brothers in a new saturated sample shared a marker on the X chromosome at Xq28.[16] Sanders et al. (1998) replicated the study, finding 66% Xq28 marker sharing in 54 pairs of gay brothers.[17] Although two other studies (Bailey et al., 1999; McKnight and Malcolm, 2000) failed to find a preponderance of gay relatives in the maternal line of homosexual men[17], a rigorous replication of the maternal loading was reported on samples in Italy in England. One study by Rice et al. in 1999 failed to replicate the Xq28 linkage results.[18] Meta-analysis of all available linkage data indicates a significant link to Xq28, but also indicates that additional genes must be present to account for the full heritability of sexual orientation.
    Mustanski et al. (2005) performed a full-genome scan (instead of just an X chromosome scan) on individuals and families previously reported on in Hamer et al. (1993) and Hu et al. (1995), as well as additional new subjects.[19] With the larger sample set and complete genome scan, the study found somewhat reduced linkage for Xq28 than reported by Hamer et al. However, they did find other markers with significant likelihood scores at 8p12, 7q36 and 10q26. Interestingly, one of the links showed highly significant maternal loading, thus further confirming the previous family studies.



    Epigenetics studies
    A recent study suggests linkage between a mother's genetic make-up and homosexuality of her sons. Women have two X chromosomes, one of which is "switched off". The inactivation of the X chromosome occurs randomly throughout the embryo, resulting in cells that are mosaic with respect to which chromosome is active. In some cases though, it appears that this switching off can occur in a non-random fashion. Bocklandt et al. (2006) reported that, in mothers of homosexual men, the number of women with extreme skewing of X chromosome inactivation is significantly higher than in mothers without gay sons. Thirteen percent of mothers with one gay son, and 23% of mothers with two gay sons showed extreme skewing, compared to 4% percent of mothers without gay sons.[20]



    Birth order
    Main article: Fraternal birth order and sexual orientation
    Blanchard and Klassen (1997) reported that each older brother increases the odds of a man being gay by 33%.[21][22] This is now "one of the most reliable epidemiological variables ever identified in the study of sexual orientation."[23] To explain this finding, it has been proposed that male fetuses provoke a maternal immune reaction that becomes stronger with each successive male fetus. Male fetuses produce HY antigens which are "almost certainly involved in the sexual differentiation of vertebrates." It is this antigen which maternal H-Y antibodies are proposed to both react to and 'remember'. Successive male fetuses are then attacked by H-Y antibodies which somehow decrease the ability of H-Y antigens to perform their usual function in brain masculinisation.[21]


    Female fertility
    In 2004, Italian researchers conducted a study of about 4,600 people who were the relatives of 98 homosexual and 100 heterosexual men. Female relatives of the homosexual men tended to have more offspring than those of the heterosexual men. Female relatives of the homosexual men on their mother's side tended to have more offspring than those on the father's side. The researchers concluded that there was genetic material being passed down on the X chromosome which both promotes fertility in the mother and homosexuality in her male offspring. The connections discovered, would explain about 20% of the cases studied, indicating that this is a highly significant but not the sole genetic factor determining sexual orientation.[24].


    Pheromone studies
    Recent research conducted in Sweden[25] has suggested that gay and straight men respond differently to two odors that are believed to be involved in sexual arousal. The research showed that when both heterosexual women (lesbians were included in the study, but the results regarding them were "somewhat confused") and gay men are exposed to a testosterone derivative found in men's sweat, a region in the hypothalamus is activated. Heterosexual men, on the other hand, have a similar response to an estrogen-like compound found in women's urine.[26] The conclusion, that sexual attraction, whether same-sex or opposite-sex oriented, operates similarly on a biological level, does not mean that there is necessarily a biological cause for homosexuality. Researchers have suggested that this possibility could be further explored by studying young subjects to see if similar responses in the hypothalamus are found and then correlating this data with adult sexual orientation.[citation needed]


    Studies of brain structure
    A number of sections of the brain have been reported to be sexually dimorphic; that is, they vary between men and women. There have also been reports of variations in brain structure corresponding to sexual orientation. In 1990, Swaab and Hofman reported a difference in the size of the suprachiasmatic nucleus between homosexual and heterosexual men.[27] In 1992, Allen and Gorski reported a difference related to sexual orientation in the size of the anterior commissure.[28]
    Early work of this type was also done by Simon LeVay. LeVay studied four groups of neurons in the hypothalamus, called INAH1, INAH2, INAH3 and INAH4. This was a relevant area of the brain to study, because of evidence that this part of the brain played a role in the regulation of sexual behaviour in animals, and because INAH2 and INAH3 had previously been reported to differ in size between men and women.[29]
    He obtained brains from 41 deceased hospital patients. The subjects were classified as follows: 19 gay men who had died of AIDS, 16 presumed heterosexual men (6 of whom had died of AIDS), and 6 presumed heterosexual women (1 of whom had died of AIDS).[29] The AIDS patients in the heterosexual groups were all identified from medical records as intravenous drug abusers or recipients of blood transfusions, though only 2 of the men in this category had specifically denied homosexual activity. The records of the remaining heterosexual subjects contained no information about their sexual orientation; they were assumed to have been mostly or all heterosexual "on the basis of the numerical preponderance of heterosexual men in the population."[29] LeVay found no evidence for a difference between the groups in the size of INAH1, INAH2 or INAH4. However, the INAH3 group appeared to be twice as big in the heterosexual male group as in the gay male group; the difference was highly significant, and remained significant when only the 6 AIDS patients were included in the heterosexual group. The size of the INAH3 in the homosexual male brains was similar to that in the heterosexual female brains.
    William Byne and colleagues attempted to replicate the differences reported in INAH 1-4 size using a different sample of brains from 14 HIV-positive homosexual males, 34 presumed heterosexual males (10 HIV-positive), and 34 presumed heterosexual females (9 HIV-positive). They found a significant difference in INAH3 size between heterosexual men and women. The INAH3 size of the homosexual men was apparently smaller than that of the heterosexual men and larger than that of the heterosexual women, though neither difference quite reached statistical significance.[30]
    Byne and colleagues also weighed and counted numbers of neurons in INAH3, tests not carried out by LeVay. The results for INAH3 weight were similar to those for INAH3 size; that is, the INAH3 weight for the heterosexual male brains was significantly larger than for the heterosexual female brains, while the results for the gay male group were between those of the other two groups but not quite significantly different from either. The neuron count also found a male-female difference in INAH3, but found no trend related to sexual orientation.[30]

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach View Post
    No because a lot of men in relationships with women are bisexual and pass on their same-sex attraction to later generations. The Catholic Right still haven't got their heads around the fact that besides hetero/homosexuality there is also bisexuality.
    The Catholic Right has to be a marginal group in the church today, given its decades long homosexual abuse tradition.

  4. #134
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    WTF

    what are you people ranting about?

    if you wanna fuck someone, go right ahead, it does not bother me

    get over yourselves EVERYONE

    move on.

  5. #135
    Politics.ie Regular eoghanacht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrotjuice View Post
    Stop posting disturbing pictures of semi-naked, obese, gay men. When I read a thread I don\'t want to see that kind of thing, I think most people agree.
    speak for yourself, the fatter the better, the gayer the better!!!
    The mods have now certified me as being a sweet and reasonable human being and Supreme Leader of the P.ie muppet alliance.

  6. #136
    Politics.ie Member The Caped Cod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rep_of_pals View Post
    The Catholic Right has to be a marginal group in the church today, given its decades long homosexual abuse tradition.
    What is that?
    "Authority that cannot be questioned is tyranny and I will not accept tyranny, any tyranny, even that of heaven."
    - Terry Pratchett

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Caped Cod View Post
    What is that?
    I'm referring to the church's homosexual abuse tradition as described by the Murphy report.

  8. #138
    Politics.ie Member FutureTaoiseach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rep_of_pals View Post
    The Catholic Right has to be a marginal group in the church today, given its decades long homosexual abuse tradition.
    Homosexuals and paedophiles are two different things. Your attempt to smear the gay community is disgusting and deplorable. The Catholic Church has actually been the main driver of homophobia in the Christian West for centuries.

    Homosexuals are adults who seek adult partners of the same gender. Stop twisting things. The vast majority of paedophiles abuse girls - not boys - according to statistics such as those of British Columbia I posted on the forum recently. Only 4% of abusers are clerics. The Church is not a microcosm of society.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach View Post
    Homosexuals and paedophiles are two different things. Your attempt to smear the gay community is disgusting and deplorable. The Catholic Church has actually been the main driver of homophobia in the Christian West for centuries.

    Homosexuals are adults who seek adult partners of the same gender. Stop twisting things. The vast majority of paedophiles abuse girls - not boys - according to statistics such as those of British Columbia I posted on the forum recently. Only 4% of abusers are clerics.
    You're mincing words here. The vast majority of victims described in the Murphy report were boys. Referring to their abusers as paedophiles rather than homosexuals doesn't fool anyone. Attempting to whitewash them is really what is disgusting and deplorable.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rep_of_pals View Post
    You're mincing words here. The vast majority of victims described in the Murphy report were boys. Referring to their abusers as paedophiles rather than homosexuals doesn't fool anyone. Attempting to whitewash them is really what is disgusting and deplorable.
    You are a really despicable individual. The vast majority of victims of paedophilia in society are female. That is consistently shown by study after study and surveys of victims of abuse. It is true that the majority of victims of clerical abuse are male - but that is because of opportunity created by a system of Catholic-run institutions segregated by gender. It is not because of your bogus notions of some kind of link between paedophilia and homosexuality. To suggest otherwise is extremely dishonest, dangerous and borders on incitement.

    If we followed your line of reasoning to its conclusion, heterosexuals would be regarded as paedophiles because most of the victims are female - which is clearly nonsense. Paedophilia is neither homosexual nor heterosexual. It is a psychosexual disorder and probably a separate sexual-orientation.

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