Micheal Martin on embryo research

[dubsthcentralboy]

Micheal Martin, speaking on Morning Ireland this morning, seemed to be at odds with Dermot Ahern over embryonic stem cell research. While Ahern was in Rome telling the Pope that there would be no such research in Ireland, Martin (who I know is not the sharpest knife in the drawer) was telling 'The Irish Catholic' newspaper that he would have no problem with experimenting on embryos.

There seems, in fact, to be quite a conflict within FF. All the FF MEPs voted against the research at the European Parliament, but the guys at home seem to be increasingly silent. Stay tuned.

[badger]

Is this research actually illegal in Ireland?

[Worldbystorm]

Difficult to know. At present, as I've noted on another thread, there is a tendancy to follow the UK HFEA and experimentation hasn't been undertaken to the best of my knowledge.

[toffeebhoy]

I would hope that any government would be in favour of it.

[Maximus]

I would hope that any government would be in favour of it.

The Government is opposed to embryonic stem-cell research taking place in Ireland, however it encourages other types of stem-cell research, including that involving adult stem cells. Embryonic research is also prohibited under Medical Council ethics guidelines.

This is a sensitive issue for many people, not just in Fianna Fail, and there is a strong body of opinion amongst the medical community, who believe the commercialisation of embryonic life is completely unethical.

[badger]

there is a strong body of opinion amongst the medical community, who believe the commercialisation of embryonic life is completely unethical.

There a bit late, what about In Vitro Fertilization? That field seems well commercialized to me

[Worldbystorm]

there is a strong body of opinion amongst the medical community, who believe the commercialisation of embryonic life is completely unethical.

There a bit late, what about In Vitro Fertilization? That field seems well commercialized to me

I'd be interested badger to hear your justification for the contention that it's commercialised.

IVF treatments in Ireland are done in private hospitals like Clane, or as part of larger hospitals in self-funding units like HARI in the Rotunda. My understanding is that they are paid not a penny from the public purse for these, and have to self-fund. The costs that patients have to pay, generally 4,000 euro for a course of IVF covers the costs of the hospital. Drugs come under the DPS scheme, so the state part funds them, no small thing seeing as the costs of hormone treatments can be exorbitant. Furthermore all IVF treatments are eligible for tax relief at the higher or lower band, depending on income (actually that I find objectionable since that can benefit the better paid and lock out the less well paid).

Any one with any experience of IVF treatments will tell you that far from being commercialised there simply aren't sufficient services within this country for those seeking to avail of them. Nor have the costs of treatments outstripped inflation over the past five years, so whatever else they do they're not making a huge killing on a vulnerable sector of the population.

Vis a vis commercialisation of embryonic life, well I'm in two minds on that. Realistically whatever regime we introduce here will be overtaken by other regimes elsewhere. On the other hand it's an area that probably requires careful movement forward. Incidentally the all-Party committee on IVF and Reproductive technologies took a relatively liberal view of all these matters.

And to update my earlier comment, no such experimentation is not illegal here, but there is no clinic that would undertake it.

[badger]

there is a strong body of opinion amongst the medical community, who believe the commercialisation of embryonic life is completely unethical.

There a bit late, what about In Vitro Fertilization? That field seems well commercialized to me

I'd be interested badger to hear your justification for the contention that it's commercialised.

IVF treatments in Ireland are done in private hospitals like Clane, or as part of larger hospitals in self-funding units like HARI in the Rotunda. My understanding is that they are paid not a penny from the public purse for these, and have to self-fund. The costs that patients have to pay, one day generally 4,000 euro for a course of IVF covers the costs of the hospital. Drugs come under the DPS scheme, so the state part funds them, no small thing seeing as the costs of hormone treatments can be exorbitant. Furthermore all IVF treatments are eligible for tax relief at the higher or lower band, depending on income (actually that I find objectionable since that can benefit the better paid and lock out the less well paid).

Any one with any experience of IVF treatments will tell you that far from being commercialised there simply aren't sufficient services within this country for those seeking to avail of them. Nor have the costs of treatments outstripped inflation over the past five years, so whatever else they do they're not making a huge killing on a vulnerable sector of the population.

Vis a vis commercialisation of embryonic life, well I'm in two minds on that. Realistically whatever regime we introduce here will be overtaken by other regimes elsewhere. On the other hand it's an area that probably requires careful movement forward. Incidentally the all-Party committee on IVF and Reproductive technologies took a relatively liberal view of all these matters.

And to update my earlier comment, no such experimentation is not illegal here, but there is no clinic that would undertake it.

You said it yourself, IVF is carried out in private hospitals, they operate to produce a profit. Is that not what commercialization is, carrying out a service for profit?
My point was that it was mentioned that medical community was against the commercialization of embryonic life, but at the same time we have private IVF clinics operating for profit that create excess embryos that are ultimately destroyed.

Don’t get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against IVF and if there is a shortage of clinics in Ireland carrying out the service that is unfortunate and the government and private sector should encourage the expansion of the service.
I made the point because I strongly feel that embryonic stem cell research is a very promising field of research that should be explored in Ireland. We already create embryos for the purpose of reproduction, a large proportion of these are ultimately thrown in the bin, it seams ridiculous to me that we can’t use these excess embryos for research and one day help people with spinal cord injuries and other degenerative diseases.

[woodie]

I would hope that any government would be in favour of it.

What is the SF position?

[Worldbystorm]

there is a strong body of opinion amongst the medical community, who believe the commercialisation of embryonic life is completely unethical.

There a bit late, what about In Vitro Fertilization? That field seems well commercialized to me

I'd be interested badger to hear your justification for the contention that it's commercialised.

IVF treatments in Ireland are done in private hospitals like Clane, or as part of larger hospitals in self-funding units like HARI in the Rotunda. My understanding is that they are paid not a penny from the public purse for these, and have to self-fund. The costs that patients have to pay, one day generally 4,000 euro for a course of IVF covers the costs of the hospital. Drugs come under the DPS scheme, so the state part funds them, no small thing seeing as the costs of hormone treatments can be exorbitant. Furthermore all IVF treatments are eligible for tax relief at the higher or lower band, depending on income (actually that I find objectionable since that can benefit the better paid and lock out the less well paid).

Any one with any experience of IVF treatments will tell you that far from being commercialised there simply aren't sufficient services within this country for those seeking to avail of them. Nor have the costs of treatments outstripped inflation over the past five years, so whatever else they do they're not making a huge killing on a vulnerable sector of the population.

Vis a vis commercialisation of embryonic life, well I'm in two minds on that. Realistically whatever regime we introduce here will be overtaken by other regimes elsewhere. On the other hand it's an area that probably requires careful movement forward. Incidentally the all-Party committee on IVF and Reproductive technologies took a relatively liberal view of all these matters.

And to update my earlier comment, no such experimentation is not illegal here, but there is no clinic that would undertake it.

You said it yourself, IVF is carried out in private hospitals, they operate to produce a profit. Is that not what commercialization is, carrying out a service for profit?
My point was that it was mentioned that medical community was against the commercialization of embryonic life, but at the same time we have private IVF clinics operating for profit that create excess embryos that are ultimately destroyed.

Don’t get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against IVF and if there is a shortage of clinics in Ireland carrying out the service that is unfortunate and the government and private sector should encourage the expansion of the service.
I made the point because I strongly feel that embryonic stem cell research is a very promising field of research that should be explored in Ireland. We already create embryos for the purpose of reproduction, a large proportion of these are ultimately thrown in the bin, it seams ridiculous to me that we can’t use these excess embryos for research and one day help people with spinal cord injuries and other degenerative diseases.

Well perhaps I'm taking your use of the term as a perjorative, but commercialised in the sense that the IVF business is in the US, I don't think so. Incidentally I'm entirely in favour of the full range of IVF treatments from IUI's through to egg donation and on to surrogacy as long as it's in a properly regulated environment.

The egg issue is difficult. Although I tend to the idea that implantation is a key point, or at least as key a point as one can find, while still being pro-choice, I guess I can understand where you're coming from in terms of research. But weirdly it still leaves me a bit uneasy.