EU to call country 'Éire Ireland'

[Fun with Irish]

After all, is anybody ever going to use Irish as a language in the normal sense, except those who are specifically paid to do so by government in the course of their employment?

Yes, and many people do, in the context of a language of family, community and private employment. I know a number of them myself.

Of course lots of people like to use their Irish in private situations. But even then, do they use Irish for communicating anything subtle, complicated, delicate or intimate? Can one say they use it as their 'full' language? I would say that when Irish is used it is used in a clubby way as a hobby among devotees, and not as a fully fledged medium of communication.

[Jippo]

[quote=Fun with Irish][quote=owenfeehan]

At the risk of being picky, could I ask you not use the word 'elite' as in "elite of cultural nationists" when referring to the Language Revivalists? The OED defines 'elite' as "the choice part or flower (of society etc.)", which implies a more restricted use of the word than you have tended to give it.

Fine. Although the reality is that the revivalist movement has achieved its successes (in so far as you can call them that) through its appeal to influencial elites in societies - particularly princiapls, school teachers, civil servants, academics and politicians.

Outside of that context, they never achieved a great deal of traction for revivalism. This is particularly true amongst the working classes where nationalism was very popular in previous decades, but who never made much effort to adopt Gaeilge.

BUT: THAT APPEAL TO INFLUENTIAL ELITES .... WHAT HAS IT BEEN? WHAT IS THAT APPEAL?

Maybe sometimes, especially in the past, it was needed for getting a job, and some activists may hope that that time will come again. But generally, is it not just the adoption of a badge of office "Official of the Irish State"? After all, is anybody ever going to use Irish as a language in the normal sense, except those who are specifically paid to do so by government in the course of their employment? Elected officials like Irish because it provides them with nationalistic plumage at little cost, and together these two factors keep The Revival' going.

But I'm getting serious. Better to take it all in good part and have a laugh.

I agree to an extent. I certainly think you are right to say follow the money trail. I believe that the huge amount of money spent by the state on the language is partially responsible for the lobbying efforts put in my groups campaigning for more Gaeilge spending. A mixture of self-interest, and that their political lobbying is effectively paid for by the tax payer.

Imagine if you put all the most resolute, say, opera-lovers working in the same building every day and gave them a few hundred million ever year of taxpayers' money to fund themselves. You'd end up with a hell of a lot more political power for the opera lobby. Without the money and jobs, the lobby would be tiny.

As regards to why the appeal exists? I don't think it can be chalked down to rules and laws and jobs entirely. There are very many autonomous schoolteachers and principals who genuinely were revivalists and felt it was important, and thus beat it into kids [quite literally]. Same with politicians and civil servants. Although, there are examples of Irish being beaten out of students too by other teachers, so I guess it depends.

I believe the language revivalist movement was disporportionately concentrated in the intelligensia, particularly in the aforementioned professions. Hence my original choice of the term elite, and yes I duely note your objections to it.

Even for example in my primary school (English speaking), all kids were assigned Irish names for the purposes of role call because the principal was a revialist. Only a handful of maybe 5-10% actually had Irish names.

Similarly, the ciriculum for the Irish language in school is hugely interwined with cultural nationalism in a way that French and German are not e.g. stair na gaeilge. This is presumably because the revivalist elite dominate the teaching profession.[/quote:2nx3vw00]

ALL WELL PUT, AND I AGREE WITH THE SUBSTANCE OF YOUR ANALYSYS.

But I emphasise the fact that the elite in question is made up of government officials or officals at one remove, elected and unelected, and their immediate liguistic clientele. Brain surgeons, industrial engineers, musicians, lawyers and novelists may have an occasional representatives in that elite - but not often. The ease with which the Revivalists get their resources is due to the fact that they are state officials and not opera lovers. The whole thing has very little to do with an actual usable language and the Language Elite does not need it to be in order to serve its purpose in their lives.[/quote:2nx3vw00]

But it is spoken in the Gaeltacht - and so what if it is used in cliques: it's still being used.

[sean1]

Fun with Irish- have you ever been to the Gaeltacht?

I would say that when Irish is used it is used in a clubby way as a hobby among devotees, and not as a fully fledged medium of communication.

This is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read.

[green]

[quote=Fun with Irish]

After all, is anybody ever going to use Irish as a language in the normal sense, except those who are specifically paid to do so by government in the course of their employment?

Yes, and many people do, in the context of a language of family, community and private employment. I know a number of them myself.

Of course lots of people like to use their Irish in private situations. But even then, do they use Irish for communicating anything subtle, complicated, delicate or intimate?[/quote:26z3vea6]

Yes.

Can one say they use it as their 'full' language?

Yes.

I would say that when Irish is used it is used in a clubby way as a hobby among devotees, and not as a fully fledged medium of communication.

It depends on the user. Yes, for many the language is a hobby or a pastime, to be spoken in Club an Chonartha a few times a month and nothing more. For many others (like those friends I mentioned above), it is their first language, the language they speak with family, friends and neighbours and one they feel can express their emotions, feelings and opinions more accurately than the acquired language of (for example) English.

It is the same with every language on Earth which still has native speakers, including English among learners abroad. Surely this is obvious?

[Catalpa]

It's a good move. I like it!

We should do more things like this to bring back Irish.

Ramming it down kids throats for decades was/is though hugely counterproductive!

We encourage the use of Irish words so that people can learn a few more as they go along.

Personally I don't think that at this stage of my life I would ever have the time/need/patience to become fluent but I would like to improve the little I do know as I go along.

I feel that there are many out there who would have the same mindset as myself.

[Fun with Irish]

[quote=green]

After all, is anybody ever going to use Irish as a language in the normal sense, except those who are specifically paid to do so by government in the course of their employment?

Yes, and many people do, in the context of a language of family, community and private employment. I know a number of them myself.

Of course lots of people like to use their Irish in private situations. But even then, do they use Irish for communicating anything subtle, complicated, delicate or intimate?

Yes.

GOOD. I HAVE NO REASON TO CONTEST THE DESCRIPTIONS OF A PERSON'S OWN FEELINGS WHEN COMMUNICATING WITH OTHERS, HOWEVER THEY DO IT. IT IS JUST THAT I NEVER MET A GROUP OF IRISH SPEAKERS WHO WERE NOT BETTER AT SPEAKING ENGLISH THAN IRISH. SO FOR THEM TO SPEAK TO ONE ANOTHER THROUGH IRISH SEEMED TO ME, IN THE ACTUAL CIRCUMSTANCES, TO LIMIT THEIR POTENTIAL RANGE OF COMMUNICATION TO LEVEL BELOW THEIR POTENTIAL IN ENGLISH.

ALSO: I HAVE READ THE REPORTS OF DR HARRIS, AND THE NCCA, WHICH SAY THAT THE LEVEL OF LINGUISTIC ACHIEVEMENT IN IRISH IN THE GAELTACHT SCHOOLS AND GAELSCOILEANNA IS LOW, SOMETIMES NEAR TO PIDGEON IRISH, AND I ADD MY MANY YEARS EXPERIENCE IN IRISH LANGUAGE GROUPS, AND I ADD MY TIME IN THE GAELTACHT, AND I ADD MY UNIVERSITY STUDY OF IRISH, AND MY IMPRESSION IS:

Irish is no longer a full-blown medium of communication in our society, nor capable of being. Not for any structural reason of the language itself, it goes without saying. But because of the nature of our current society, which means that Irish can only be the preserve of (what I called) hobby groups. In fact, the only reason that the general population has to pay any attention to the matter is because those hobby groups are the custodians of a state ideology or imagery, and therefore carry state influence, and therefore the recipients of state resources; and because they want to make their hobby compulsory for everybody using state authority.

Can one say they use it as their 'full' language?

Yes.

I would say that when Irish is used it is used in a clubby way as a hobby among devotees, and not as a fully fledged medium of communication.

It depends on the user. Yes, for many the language is a hobby or a pastime, to be spoken in Club an Chonartha a few times a month and nothing more. For many others (like those friends I mentioned above), it is their first language, the language they speak with family, friends and neighbours and one they feel can express their emotions, feelings and opinions more accurately than the acquired language of (for example) English.

It is the same with every language on Earth which still has native speakers, including English among learners abroad. Surely this is obvious?[/quote:bufmhzjn]

[Gary]

angelcountry right?

THAT THE LEVEL OF LINGUISTIC ACHIEVEMENT IN IRISH IN THE GAELTACHT SCHOOLS AND GAELSCOILEANNA IS LOW

in the Gaeltacht schools it is down due people moving there without Irish, so most teaching has to be done through English, Gaelscoileannaí performed very well in the report!!

AND I ADD MY MANY YEARS EXPERIENCE IN IRISH LANGUAGE GROUPS, AND I ADD MY TIME IN THE GAELTACHT, AND I ADD MY UNIVERSITY STUDY OF IRISH, AND MY IMPRESSION IS:

ní chreidfinn é sin ar feadh nóiméad amháin

[Fun with Irish]

angelcountry right?

THAT THE LEVEL OF LINGUISTIC ACHIEVEMENT IN IRISH IN THE GAELTACHT SCHOOLS AND GAELSCOILEANNA IS LOW

in the Gaeltacht schools it is down due people moving there without Irish, so most teaching has to be done through English, Gaelscoileannaí performed very well in the report!!

[quote:6b7ef2o3]AND I ADD MY MANY YEARS EXPERIENCE IN IRISH LANGUAGE GROUPS, AND I ADD MY TIME IN THE GAELTACHT, AND I ADD MY UNIVERSITY STUDY OF IRISH, AND MY IMPRESSION IS:

ní chreidfinn é sin ar feadh nóiméad amháin[/quote:6b7ef2o3]

OK: Let me take a step or two back.

I did not intend to give offence while discussing any group's grasp of any language, or to judge their social interactions when they use it. But I did assume that there are very few members of the population who have a larger vocabulary in Irish than they have in English. I should not have generalised on the basis of that assumption and I am sorry for doing so.

[Jippo]

I just asked a lad in work who is a native speaker and an Irish fanatic.

It's definitely Éire down here anyway.

[chris_nelson]

We might as well just change our name to Eire "De Valera is a ********" the Republic of Rockall, Enya, Riverdance and U2 Ireland.

Rockall's Scottish - fair's fair!

Well, technically Welsh, Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are acquiring statuses pretty close to being official in the United Kingdom. Perhaps our name should be translated too - any volunteers? :P

(I always understood it to be Éire btw - but what do I know, I'm only part Irish and living in England!)