Why Catholic ethos and morality didn't prevent abuse of children

[Almanac]

I think that information is irrelevant. Other sinful deeds do not excuse the sinful deeds under discussion. Moreover, we are not simply dealing with instances of actual abuse, but rather with systemised, coordinated cover-up of abuse and an attempt by all concerned to hide behind legal argument and obfuscation so as to prevent justice being done.

And your point is? Please don't put words in my mouth and especially don't infer that I'm trying to excuse child abuse. You clearly did not understand the post or the point I was making, which is that it is utterly ludicrous to blame Catholicism as a belief system, and by extension, all Catholic believers for these atrocious crimes.

Even as biased an observer as Eoghan Harris made the same point today in the Sindo:

"Did abuse arise from something endemically evil in Roman Catholicism? Of course not. Apart from one infamous institution on the [COLOR=#306294]Ards Peninsula[/COLOR], abuse was rare in Roman Catholic institutions in [COLOR=#306294]Northern Ireland[/COLOR], simply because they were inspected properly. The problem was not Roman Catholicism, per se, but its distorted relations with the Irish Republic."

Source

[Demotruk]

And your point is? Please don't put words in my mouth and especially don't infer that I'm trying to excuse child abuse. You clearly did not understand the post or the point I was making, which is that it is utterly ludicrous to blame Catholicism as a belief system, and by extension, all Catholic believers for these atrocious crimes.

Even as biased an observer as Eoghan Harris made the same point today in the Sindo:

"Did abuse arise from something endemically evil in Roman Catholicism? Of course not. Apart from one infamous institution on the [COLOR=#306294]Ards Peninsula[/COLOR], abuse was rare in Roman Catholic institutions in [COLOR=#306294]Northern Ireland[/COLOR], simply because they were inspected properly. The problem was not Roman Catholicism, per se, but its distorted relations with the Irish Republic."

Source

Look at the thread title. Do you see the word "caused"? Or do you see the words "didn't prevent"?

Personally I don't think Catholicism had all that much to do with the whole affair, but let's not have a persecution complex, shall we?

[Almanac]

We are engaging in an open discussion in an attempt to understand how this state of affairs came about. It is perfectly understandable that people are angry with the Church and are looking for answers. Being defensive and dismissive of criticism, well, that attitude has contributed to the mess we now find ourselves in. I am sure there are Catholics up and down the country going to Mass today with a heavy heart and a troubled conscience. That is very sad. Blind, unquestioning loyalty exacerbated the problems in the past. It wasn't right then and it isn't right now.

I don't believe in blind and unquestioning loyalty to anything. Please do not misrepresent the points I make. If you want to conflate the Church with the behaviour of a minority of debased individuals and their facilitators feel free. You'll find you're in good company here. But I do not believe in corporate responsibility. I believe in individual responsibility. I do not believe Archbishop Romero or Mother Teresa or any of the other innumerable irreprochable Catholics are somehow responsible for and implicated in the atrocities committed by criminals who happened to come dressed as Catholics.

[Almanac]

Look at the thread title. Do you see the word "caused"? Or do you see the words "didn't prevent"?

Personally I don't think Catholicism had all that much to do with the whole affair, but let's not have a persecution complex, shall we?

It has never prevented evil. Individuals whether Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, secularist or whatever always have free choice. What is so shocking is that these individuals betrayed so abominably the ethic of the religion to which they belonged.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I don't believe in blind and unquestioning loyalty to anything. Please do not misrepresent the points I make. If you want to conflate the Church with the behaviour of a minority of debased individuals and their facilitators feel free. You'll find you're in good company here. But I do not believe in corporate responsibility. I believe in individual responsibility. I do not believe Archbishop Romero or Mother Teresa or any of the other innumerable irreprochable Catholics are somehow responsible for and implicated in the atrocities committed by criminals who happened to come dressed as Catholics.

When I hear that the innumerable irreproachable catholics have forced the catholic church to pay recompense and apologise to their victims and hand over the names to the gardai to be dealt with in court I'll start distinguishing them from the rotten organisation to which they belong.

I'm only seeing the odd decent catholic at the moment.

[Demotruk]

It has never prevented evil. Individuals whether Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, secularist or whatever always have free choice. What is so shocking is that these individuals betrayed so abominably the ethic of the religion to which they belonged.

It's not that shocking really. Although, do you not believe that the church is an institution that is supposed to promote good and to live by a certain standard? Do you think they simply don't live by a higher standard than everyone else?

[Almanac]

Hmm... now where's that lawnmower.

[Demotruk]

So then, if the church is no better than anyone else, how come they're always preaching about morality?

[Almanac]

It's not that shocking really. Although, do you not believe that the church is an institution that is supposed to promote good and to live by a certain standard? Do you think they simply don't live by a higher standard than everyone else?

Who is "they"? The billion that make up the Catholic Church? How would I know? What I do know is that there are plenty who have lived extraordinarily good lives. There's also much evidence from independent sources documenting that religious people are more prosocial and altruistic than non-believers. This is the finding of secular scientists such as Prof Richard Wiseman, and institutes such as the Royal Economic Society.

So, yes, I do find it shocking. And I look for the explanation in the particular social and cultural conditions of that time and the historical context, including the way in which Church authorities in Ireland operated up until recently. What I do not look for is an association between the Catholic religion and these crimes.

[Demotruk]

Judging from the standard of evidence in past threads of yours, I'm not going to bother click those links.