Criminal Assets Bureau to seize church assets?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

nope- anti-paedophilist. Don't know where the Marmalade Family stand on the issue.

[cyberianpan]

Could one or more respondents (or others) please elaborate:

1. Why assets can't be seized (from a legal perspective): crimes have been committed, and that such crimes have been committed has been uncontested; there has been financial gain from these crimes which is now partly tied up in existing church assets.

Leaving aside the issue of whether crimes were committed and whether such crimes would be in scope of CAB:

the issue is when

Some Statute of limitations will apply to CAB stuff, almost certain you woudn't be able to go back 20 years, and even 10 might prove a problem

Kiddy fiddling wasn't so bad the the RC church by the late 80's / early 90's .. so not sure CAB idea works due to time alone.

cYp

[Mr Crowley]

The Criminal Assets Bureau should apply to seize church assets now that it has been established that State funds earmarked to educate children has been siphoned off to feather the nests of Catholic church clergy.

This is a criminal matter, which needs to lead to criminal prosecutions and asset seizures and disposals.

The Catholic church in its various guises should be treated no differently to Anglo Irish Bank/National Irish Bank, to a practice of corrupt solicitors, or to a gang of drug barons.

The CAB are doing very little about our corrupt bankers and politicans. Its a nice thought though.

They're being treated exactly the same as the bankers - they got away with passing their liabilities onto the state too.

The OP is an excellent idea but the next two highlight the realities of the situation: The 26C state administration is rotten to the core.

The Irish people need to wake up.

[Ah Well]

The Criminal Assets Bureau should apply to seize church assets now that it has been established that State funds earmarked to educate children has been siphoned off to feather the nests of Catholic church clergy.

This is a criminal matter, which needs to lead to criminal prosecutions and asset seizures and disposals.

The Catholic church in its various guises should be treated no differently to Anglo Irish Bank/National Irish Bank, to a practice of corrupt solicitors, or to a gang of drug barons.

Just 2 observations;

1. This will not occur unless such measures occur
2. Such measures will not occur

[goosebump]

This is about the 4th time I've posted this today, but sure what the hell:


BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN

A44.6

6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.

[Lidl_Shopper]

By seizing the church's assets you presumably want the CAB to confiscate the actual churches? You can't demolish these churches since they're of historic and patrimonial value and with such high Mass attendance in this country and the use of churches for weddings and funerals, you would in all conceivable circumstances still have to let Mass be celebrated in them. Presumably what you're proposing is something similar to the French Law on Secularism 1905. Because of that all French Catholic churches are in state ownership but the priests still are allowed to celebrate Mass in them. The French situation has been of great benefit to the Catholic Church there since only the government has to fund the very expensive upkeep of the churches while the clergy still get the benefit of them. Your proposal is counterproductive.

[Mr Crowley]

This is about the 4th time I've posted this today, but sure what the hell:


BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN

A44.6

6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.

Think of the people who have been responsible for the constitution; like DeValera, Haughey and Ahern. Puppets and criminals.

[Mr Crowley]

By seizing the church's assets you presumably want the CAB to confiscate the actual churches? You can't demolish these churches since they're of historic and patrimonial value

They should be maintained by the state and converted to uses that positively benefit the local communities.

In many areas this would directly benefit families who have contributed to the building and maintenance of these buildings.

with such high Mass attendance in this country and the use of churches for weddings and funerals,

Our society is in great need of demystification; revelations such as the child abuse report assist in this evolutionary process.

you would in all conceivable circumstances still have to let Mass be celebrated in them. Presumably what you're proposing is something similar to the French Law on Secularism 1905. Because of that all French Catholic churches are in state ownership but the priests still are allowed to celebrate Mass in them. The French situation has been of great benefit to the Catholic Church there since only the government has to fund the very expensive upkeep of the churches while the clergy still get the benefit of them. Your proposal is counterproductive.

No, they need to be excised from Irish society.

[Lidl_Shopper]

They should be maintained by the state and converted to uses that positively benefit the local communities.

In many areas this would directly benefit families who have contributed to the building and maintenance of these buildings.

This is far too unrealistic. Irish life to a great extent revolves around Catholic ceremonies. The church is where we're baptized, communed, confirmed, married, and given a funeral. Practically half the population goes to Mass every week and a huge amount more goes at regular intervals. To follow your suggestion would involve stopping all these. That'd make a lot of people very mad. Many of these families would doubtlessly feel that the nuiscance and inconvenience caused by impeding them from getting married, confirmed, baptized, 'funeraled' etc would far outweigh any potential benefit caused by the expropriation of these properties. Try telling Irish mothers that they're no longer able to send their darling princess down the church aisle in her dazzling dress on her first communion day.

Our society is in great need of demystification; revelations such as the child abuse report assist in this evolutionary process.

A large proportion of people who are using churches for weddings, funerals, baptism and getting their daughters communed etc have zilch belief in Catholic dogma, and I think many of them, while often hating the church at the same time, see the status quo as the best of a bad situation.

No, they need to be excised from Irish society.

You support excising all clergy from Irish society? How? By deportations? Illiberal, not going to happen, impractical, offensive, and unjust. It would also be a great way to engender sympathy for the Church.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

If there's a problem with CAB confiscation there is always another route. 'Windfall' taxation.

There's absolutely nothing to stop an Irish Finance Minister windfall taxing any organisation and the catholic church is a good target because it has clearly been operating as both a business and a political organisation.

They've been in breach of their non-tax status for decades. It isn't just churches they own either- the catholic church owns a lot of prime land and has a commercial and residential property portfolio.

They must be one of the only organisations in the western world allowed tax free status, able to run investment businesses, hide behind charity status for tax reasons and operate as a de facto political organisation as well.

I'd change that overnight and I would seize 100% of their assets and wouldn't even mention the abuse reparations in the announcement. In fact, I'd rather carefully avoid doing so as it would leave their lawyers potless as regards any deal Woods signed off with them.

My response? 'Oh this is a different matter entirely.' And then I'd hand over at least £1billion to the Survivors as a 'by the way'.

Job done.