10 Reasons Each Way... (Lisbon)

[Wakeupcall]

10 reasons to vote yes

10 reasons to vote no

(With sources if possible please)

[Christine Murray]

10 reasons to vote yes

10 reasons to vote no

(With sources if possible please)

1. Nearly all the political parties , both Government and opposition are urging a a yes vote, so it must be right...,

[IrishTom]

just as Nice was a pre cursor to EU enlargement so too is Lisbon, as if mass immigration is not bad enough, imagine if there was 10 million turks wading into the EU unchecked, and God knows who else the beurocrats in brussles will invite to join the united states of Europe.

also the very fact the Government and the EU ignore the democratic will of the Irish people is reason enough to vote no again.

the EU is fast becoming an undemocratic superstate, that if left to grow unchecked will spiral into a dictatorship masked in a false democrasy

[pete2]

The disaster of Nice and the lies the Yes campaign told to pass it

times ten

[eurosceptic]

well said pete2.

[Question R24U]

These were the 10 which convinced me. I asked posters on this site for reasons after Lisbon I, got many decent resonses, but these won out.

Lisbon Treaty specific reasons:

1) Lisbon was an improvement on the Constitution, and if Lisbon fails the next deal on offer will be substantially worse for Ireland and it will be not on the basis that all have to sign up (an Ibis generated point).
2) Those that deal with the EU at Council level (ie the coalface) have no problem with the dilution of voting strength there, so why should I (again Ibis)
3) The Green Ministers' point about the inability of Ireland to influence Environmental and Energy policy on our own.
Charter of Fundamental Rights puts definite and real limits on that power
4) Greater involvement of national parliaments in EU decision making – while ours will continue to be useless, some of the other democracies may alert them to relevant points.
5) Permanent Council President (to deal with things like the Ossetian conflict) balances the US President’s power (or at least look that way).
6)An important new provision, sets out the values on which the European Union is founded - respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities
7) Double majority required for European Council QMV votes
8) The limitations: a) the EU will only has those powers explicitly conferred on it, all other powers remain with the Member States - the principle of conferral.
b) And the EU shall only act if and only insofar as the objective in question cannot be sufficiently achieved at Member State level - the subsidiarity principle and c)The Union shall only act to the extent necessary to achieve the objective in question - the principle of proportionality.
9) The items which are going to be decided by QMV are fairly poxy (although including sport means Bosman can be overturned) and the most important such as taxation, defence, Social Security, citizens rights, official languages, Common foreign and Security Policy, amendments to the the treaties will still require unanimous agreement from Member States before any changes can be made.
10. Justice & Home Affairs (one of my chief concerns)
The Treaty provides a new 'emergency brake' arrangement. This allows a member state to prevent any criminal law measure that it considers would affect fundamental aspect of its legal system from being adopted. This arrangement was agreed during Ireland's Presidency in 2004. Ireland's legal system is different from that of EU partners. Because of this we have availed of an opt-in/opt-out arrangement that will allow us to join any new arrangement being made on a case-by-case basis.

[eurosceptic]

Questions let me convince you otherwise on those 10 points.
1- Any future deal worse than lisbon wont stand a chance in an irish referendum. Any future deal CANNOT be made without us. Thus fear not a no vote. Talk of a treaty without us is purely scaremongering. Lisbon is the same as the constitution btw.
2- Take a read of john major's autobiography to see how the council voting really works. Then you will not like the new QMV rules and the franco-german axis will love them.
3- This is one of the more welcome elements but it doesnt go far enough and comes at too high a price. Plus common environmental and energy policy is possible without lisbon albeit more headache ridden.
4- This is one of the more welcome elements but it doesnt go far enough and comes at too high a price. The "yellow" card is toothless and the "orange" card is too difficult to invoke.
5- Permanent council president weakens the smaller members of the EU as the larger members will insist on their man getting the job. How do you fancy tony blair, will he balance or duplicate the errors of the USA. As for ossieta what can this permanent presidient actually do other than say we protest (what the rotating presidient would do).
6- Window dressing plain and simple. As we are all members of the ECHR this is already the case.
7- Red herring. Double majority is already built into the current QMV rules. The lisbon double majority formula weakens our hand and strengthens the franco-german hand.
8a- Closing the door after the horse has bolted. Federal government of USA & Australia got their powers by voluntary conferral so principle of conferral is a red herring. In the last 36 years name 3 powers that have been taken back.
8b&c- Window dressing. The EU will decide whats proportional and subsidised.
9- We set our own tax rates but the problem is CCCTB which is made easier by lisbon. Unanimity can be breached on foreign and security policy under lisbon. Lisbon creates a mutual defence pact albeit fudge coated.
10- The house of lords report into lisbon found both the opt in/out mechanism and "emergency brake" are flawed. Safer to keep unanimity.

Questions i am going to make it my mission to convince you to vote no if necessary iw il offer to meet you for a pint if you are dublin based.

[clonycavanman]

Reasons against:
1.Expansion
2.Militarism
3.Foreign policy becomes a bigger preoccupation/distraction/trap than formerly.
4.CFR limits Irish State power- and loads State with obligations to 'everyone'.
5.All smaller states have less say; invitation to divider pour regler
6.No need- the post-Nice EU is functioning, and has much to do within it's own borders.

Also, probably applies to both Nice and Lisbon versions; 7.Disconnect between the ambitions of the ordinary people and Eurocracy eg citizens wondering 'What's this for?' and the damaging question, 8. 'How does a citizen change an EU law?

[imsopeedoff]

Questions & eurosceptic please keep this debate going! I know more about this shaggin treaty from both your posts than from any literature received so far. Personally very sceptical, trying to see both sides of the argument, but as so many politicians I distrust are for it....my gut says no. It's a tough one alright.

[TommyO'Brien]

1. If we stick with Nice, under its rules the next commission, as the first commission formed after the entry of the 27th member into the EU, will have to have less than 27 members. It specifies that a one-commissioner-per-country-per-commission ceases to operate. So the maximum size of the new commission will be 26 (total number of countries minus one). Keep Nice and we lose the commissioner. Pass Lisbon and it provides a mechanism for returning to a full-size commission.
2. The current pillar structure is cumbersome, costly and bureaucratic and will be abolished by Lisbon.
3. Ireland retains two crucial 'get out of jail free' cards with regard to the mutual assistance clause which may not be put into a replacement treaty.
4. CAP negotiations are due and Lisbon increases our influence on the process through parliament.
5. The charter of fundamental rights outlines important principles of EU law.
6. The distinction between EU law and EC law is being abolished.
7. Ad-hoc procedures on common defence are being regulated and subject to judicial review for the first time.
8. A lot of the design flaws in Nice are being fixed.
9. The status of neutral states is recognised.
10. The messy and costly distinction between the EU and EC is being abolished, along with the latter.