Exploding public pay rates

[Proposition Joe]

That doesn't follow.

Care to explain why it doesn't follow?

It would be difficult to sustain an argument based on the relative effectiveness of the Irish public sector as compared to that of our European neighbours.

Anyone who's worked in the UK or Germany or France can attest that the quality of public services in any of those countries put us in the ha'penny place. That's a ha'penny in terms of outcomes as opposed to inputs.

[hopi watcher]

Regardless of the chicken-and-egg argument on wages driving costs or vice versa, how do justify the relativity between public and private sector wages being completely out of whack with that in other European economies?

You persist with this nonsense. I do not accept for one moment that Irish PSs are better off than their counterparts in Europe when all aspects are considered.

[hopi watcher]

Hopi, there is no organsiation in the world, private or public sector that is a model of effeceincy, there is no organisation in the world that cannot be made more effeceint, and any such organisation that does not reform will die in the private sector, in the public sector it will assist in drowning our economy even further than it is at the moment. If you say that it is not possible to reform and improve the public service to a significant measure, then you are purely and simply a liar.

Now they didn't teach you to call people names in low babies so I take it that you get your wisdom at the back of the bike shed.
Where more than two people meet to do anything efficiencies can be made. What's your point?

[wexfordman]

You persist with this nonsense. I do not accept for one moment that Irish PSs are better off than their counterparts in Europe when all aspects are considered.

Do you accept that Irish Private sector workers were better off than thier european counter parts ? I know I was, and most of my fellow private sector workers were ?

[Proposition Joe]

You persist with this nonsense. I do not accept for one moment that Irish PSs are better off than their counterparts in Europe when all aspects are considered.

What "aspects" do you consider justify a 20%+ premium over the private sector in our case, as opposed to a 10% shortfall as is the norm in Europe.

[Conor]

Care to explain why it doesn't follow?

It's a non-sequiteur. Different cost-of-living levels have no particular bearing on the relativity between public and private wage levels. You might equally say: "The local climate is the same for public and private sector workers, right? Therefore in any given economy, one would expect similar relativities between public and private sector wages, right?".

[hopi watcher]

What "aspects" do you consider justify a 20%+ premium over the private sector in our case, as opposed to a 10% shortfall as is the norm in Europe.

I do not accept your assertion that such a gap exists. These figures are bandied about like snuff at a wedding but they are essentially meaningless. Again the provision of vital services, free at the piont of delivery, are a key factor.
I work in what you refer to as the private sector and my pay has not been reduced. Peolpe calling for only one group to take reductions are being dishonest and unfair. As has been posted already, if there is a need to reduce incomes than all should be reduced or better still a fair and progressive tax system should be introduced so that all income is properly taxed and particulary high end income.
Chasing the PS around the table is futile and particularly, as has been pointed out, that we have one of the leanest in Europe. All this be bleating is just a distraction and an attempt to scapegoat.

[wexfordman]

Now they didn't teach you to call people names in low babies so I take it that you get your wisdom at the back of the bike shed.

Oh jesus, you are painful at times....
(note your comment re childisness below by the way, and note your similar comments in relation to myself), spot the irony yet ?

Where more than two people meet to do anything efficiencies can be made. What's your point?

You replied to Joe

Your contention that the PS is responible for all our ills is really becoming tedious not to mention childish.[COLOR=Red] We cannot afford a decent healthcare service becaus those pesky public sector workers are overpaid and ineffeicent[/COLOR]!!! Well the news is, it would be wonderful of that was the case, the solution would be very easy, [COLOR=Red]but alas that is not the case and scapegoating is a futile past time. [/COLOR]

I simply stated that if you deny the ps, including the health service is not capable of significan reform and cost saving (painfull as it may be), you are a liar (a liar because even with your "childish" ascertations above, I credit you with a level of intelligence to be able to see this).

[Proposition Joe]

Different cost-of-living levels have no particular bearing on the relativity between public and private wage levels.

That is precisely my point.

High cost of living was by Hopi and others to justify higher wage level for public servants than for private private sector workers who incur the same costs of living.

So now that we've got that one out of the way, have you any ideas as to why relativity between public and private wage levels is anomalous in this country?

[hopi watcher]

Do you accept that Irish Private sector workers were better off than thier european counter parts ? I know I was, and most of my fellow private sector workers were ?

No you weren't, you thought you were. We only knew who bad off we were when we got sick, or tried to get an off spring into a local school. On that point other Euiropean countries are providing creche facilities as well as the standard eduactional programmes. We are streets behind.