Marxism and Lacan - Incompatible Theories

[cactusflower]

I really don't think that's true. The problem with Marxism (one of the problems with Marxism?) is that it confuses and conflates two related but distinct endeavors: empirical social science and normative social and political philosophy.

Can you give an example of how you think Marxism does that?

Also, for the most part, the airplanes stay up.

Indeed they do.

[stringjack]

Why are you so insistent that the science doesn't lead to increased knowledge of the universe - how did that little widget reach Mars last year and send us photos back last year? It wasn't guesswork.
Are you a deeply religious person ?

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It would probably be bad form to win the argument by having Cael sectioned.

[cactusflower]

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It would probably be bad form to win the argument by having Cael sectioned.

Are you tempted ?

[Cael]

Aaargh. Just when I thought we were getting somewhere. How exactly did Godel (cant find umlaut) show that all human systems are inconsistent ?

Why are you so insistent that the science doesn't lead to increased knowledge of the universe - how did that little widget reach Mars last year and send us photos back last year? It wasn't guesswork.
Are you a deeply religious person ?

Here is some info on the incompleteness theorem:

Gödel's incompleteness theorems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I dont say that science dosnt lead to increased knowledge of the Universe, but it relates that knowledge in the form of myth, or perhaps "metaphor" is a term that you would find less offensive. Im a spiritual person, but my argument is not an attempt to make space for a God, its siomply a recognition that language is limited.

[Cael]

The great strength of Marx's work is that it draws attention to the manner in which power and ideology interact - critical theory owes a significant debt to Marx. The great weakness of Marxism is that it became obsessed with critical theory. The claims you make here, for example, are inflated beyond any reasonable use of the insights that critical theory permits.

So do you think Kuhn was being unreasonable when he wrote The Structure of Scientific Revolutions?

[stringjack]

Can you give an example of how you think Marxism does that?

Perhaps I should say Marxists, rather than Marxism?

Anyway, part of the problem is that the early Marx is quite different from the later Marx; another part is that theoretical Marxism can be considered to be distinct from what we might term 'political' Marxism. Socialism is at times portrayed as a normatively desirable goal, and at times as a consequence of the operation of deterministic historical laws, with no normative content.

[stringjack]

Are you tempted ?

Frequently.

So do you think Kuhn was being unreasonable when he wrote The Structure of Scientific Revolutions?

I think certain interpretations of the types of conclusions Kuhn came to are far more unreasonable.

[Cael]

Frequently.



I think certain interpretations of the types of conclusions Kuhn came to are far more unreasonable.

How would you interpret this statement:

Research is "a strenuous and devoted attempt to force nature into the conceptual boxes supplied by professional education"

[cactusflower]

Science is not restricted to language. There is mathematics and physical experiment. Why do you say it relates to knowledge in the form of myth? I thought you accepted that the development of thought through natural selection was an evolutionary advantage ? That would only be the case if thought allowed for accurate reflection of nature and the development of knowledge that enabled us to survive more effectively in the material world.

I'll read your link: here is one from Lenin:

Lenin: 1908/mec: 1. Sensations And Complexes Of Sensations

Have you read Diderot on idealism ? Historically, idealist philosophy of the kind you and stringjack espouse was intended to counteract the materialism of the Enlightenment - it was a reactionary tendency both philosophically and politically.

[stringjack]

How would you interpret this statement:

Research is "a strenuous and devoted attempt to force nature into the conceptual boxes supplied by professional education"...

As an exaggeration of the quite reasonable observation that people tend to apply pre-existing conceptual frames to new data, in a manner which influences the selection of subsequent hypotheses.