Cost of voting on Lisbon Treaty set to top €50m

[Risteard]

No, the allegedly clear majority are afraid of voting NO again, because of the attempts to criminalise the legitimate and correct NO vote.

[ibis]

As most of our domestic legislation is transposing EU directives then most national legislation is subject to the charter. Even taking into account that purely national legislation isnt subject to the charter it is still a big power shift to the ECJ as EU legislation successfully negotiated (depending on your point of view) by irish ministers mandated by the oireachtas can be struck down.

It's hardly a power shift to the ECJ, because the ECJ doesn't take cases itself! It's a power shift to the citizen, who will be able to take a case through the ECJ against EU legislation he/she feels impinges on his/her rights.

Also, I'd be interested to see any proof of the claim that "most of our domestic legislation is transposing EU directives". That's something that is also regularly claimed in the UK, but which is apparently far from the case:

Dr D R Cooper accuses me of ignorence when I revealed that only 9% of UK legislation comes from the EU but this is a statistic provided by the politically neutral House of Commons Library.

Further evidence of this is that only three out of the 32 pieces of legislation in the current Queen's speech arise from agreements we reached at EU level.

In some areas, like the environment and trade, a far higher percentage of legislation is agreed and dealt with at European level (reflecting the transnational nature of the subjects), but in other areas like health, education and defence there is virtually none at all, which explains the low figure many, including Dr R Cooper are so surprised by!

[eurosceptic]

PeterV i disagree.

"1. Increased access to European Markets - A yes vote on the Lisbon Reform Treaty means that the single market project will be more efficient and Irish business can secure further business opportunitie"

Answear: Increased efficiency doesnt necessarily increase quality.

"2. Ireland will retain a veto in key areas for Irish Business - A yes vote on the Lisbon Reform Treaty means that any member state will have a veto on decisions in relation to Taxation, including Corporation Tax, key areas of Social Policy and Foreign Direct Investment (FDI)."

Answear: we set our own tax rates but lisbon will make it easier for CCCTB to take place. By saying no we keep an independent FDI. Everyone will have a veto over EU-FDI policy so if we can threaten to bring the house down so can poland, so who backs down?

"3. Improve our ability to attract foreign direct investment (FDI) - A yes vote on the Lisbon Reform Treaty will enhance Ireland’s reputation as being a good place to do business which is at the Heart of Europe."

Answear: We are full members of the common market yes or no. FDI investors only care about our commonmarket membership which isnt changing.

"4. Increased access to international markets and power to shape the rules of international trade - A yes vote on the Lisbon Treaty improves our chances to secure access to international markets and will increase Ireland's weight in shaping the rules of international trade."

Answear: Lisbon takes away our automatic veto's on the EU's trade position, seriously weakening our hand. Also as common market members we have the same access as everyone else yes or no.

"5. New business opportunities for Irish companies - A yes vote on the Lisbon Reform Treaty creates the potential for increased opportunities for Irish business particularly in areas subject to increasing liberalisation such as Transport, Energy and the Environment."

Answear: This is true but the same opportunities are created for all european companies, could this lead to large british, french,german companies hoovering up small irish companies?

"6. Irish business will continue to develop highly skilled jobs - The Lisbon Reform Treaty lays down the objective of full employment and social progress. To this end, the Treaty prescribes that Member States and the European Union shall develop a coordinated strategy for employment. One reason for Ireland’s economic success has been the coordination of employment guidelines at European level and the exchange of best practice among EU Member States. A yes vote on the Lisbon Reform Treaty means Ireland’s employment measures can be further developed and our ability to develop highly skilled jobs will be enhanced."

Answear: The full employment and social progress clauses are waffle. We can benefit under the current rules and structures.

"7. Ireland’s exposure regarding energy security will be reduced. As an island at the periphery of Europe, Ireland is geographically isolated, particularly in terms of energy security. The Lisbon Reform Treaty for the first time includes energy security as a policy of the European Union and refers to a spirit of solidarity between member states' when it comes to difficulties in energy supply. The Lisbon Reform Treaty also promotes the interconnection of energy networks."

Answear: This was one of the better ideas in lisbon i concede. It can however happen under the current treaties if we are all agreed.

As for the opion polls i note Red-C dont publish their question. Peadar Mac revealed to us that he was asked how will you vote if voting no means ireland has to leave the EU. The Irish times/MRBI at least had the honesty to publish their skewed question.

[evercloserunion]

Answear: Increased efficiency doesnt necessarily increase quality.

Efficiency, I would imagine, is a function of both quality and speed. Increased efficiency means better or equal quality at increased speed.

Answear: We are full members of the common market yes or no. FDI investors only care about our commonmarket membership which isnt changing.

I think Coca Cola have proven you wrong there.

Answear: This is true but the same opportunities are created for all european companies, could this lead to large british, french,german companies hoovering up small irish companies?

The idea of an EU reform treaty benefitting only Ireland and no one else is absurd. If progress is to come about in Europe it must and will be for all Europeans. This is a good thing. there is no reason other nations should not enjoy the benefit from EU membership under Lisbon which we enjoy, and vice versa. That said, the term "liberalization" is a very vague term, and all the pro-Lisbon right wingers as well as the anti-Lisbon left wingers may well be getting ahead of themselves if they think Lisbon will lead to privatization of services of general interest.

Answear: The full employment and social progress clauses are waffle. We can benefit under the current rules and structures.

There's nothing in this "answear". The social progress clauses are not waffle; social progress is always welcome. We can benefit under the current rules but that is not to say that we can't benefit more under Lisbon.

Answear: This was one of the better ideas in lisbon i concede. It can however happen under the current treaties if we are all agreed.

So do you support implementing part of the Lisbon Treaty by legislation?

[He3]

It's hardly a power shift to the ECJ, because the ECJ doesn't take cases itself! It's a power shift to the citizen, who will be able to take a case through the ECJ against EU legislation he/she feels impinges on his/her rights.

How would a citizen go about this, exactly?

[lostexpectation]

would it not be better to spread this cost out by like not having the ref for another 5 years

[ibis]

How would a citizen go about this, exactly?

"If the case does concern EU law, either the affected private party will be in a position, in accordance with very restrictive conditions, to bring it before the Luxembourg Court, which will apply the Charter and not directly the ECHR, or, if such access is not possible, the affected natural or legal person will be able to raise the issue before the competent domestic court, which may – and as a court of last instance must - in turn apply to the ECJ seeking an interpretation of EC law. In giving its preliminary ruling, the ECJ will apply the Charter. The domestic court, however, will have to apply both the Charter and the ECHR. In the light of its “extended” competence, the Strasbourg Court will arguably be competent to review both the judgments of the domestic courts and that of the ECJ."

Source: Opinion on the Implications of a Legally-binding EU Charter of fundamental rights on Human Rights Protection in Europe - European Commission For Democracy Through Law (Venice Commission).

[He3]

"If the case does concern EU law, either the affected private party will be in a position, in accordance with very restrictive conditions, to bring it before the Luxembourg Court, which will apply the Charter and not directly the ECHR, or, if such access is not possible, the affected natural or legal person will be able to raise the issue before the competent domestic court, which may – and as a court of last instance must - in turn apply to the ECJ seeking an interpretation of EC law. In giving its preliminary ruling, the ECJ will apply the Charter. The domestic court, however, will have to apply both the Charter and the ECHR. In the light of its “extended” competence, the Strasbourg Court will arguably be competent to review both the judgments of the domestic courts and that of the ECJ."

Source: Opinion on the Implications of a Legally-binding EU Charter of fundamental rights on Human Rights Protection in Europe - European Commission For Democracy Through Law (Venice Commission).

Thanks.

Very restrictive conditions on access to the ECJ and no entitlement as of right to have an Irish court refer a point to the ECJ.

There are arguments both ways on the CFR but there is little doubt that the continuing work on the EU legal order treats the ordinary citizen as a pest.

[evercloserunion]

Thanks.

Very restrictive conditions on access to the ECJ and no entitement as of right to have an Irish court refer a point to the ECJ.

There are arguments both ways on the CFR but there is little doubt that the continuing work on the EU legal order treats the ordinary citizen as a pest.

Sorry, there is doubt over here.

[He3]

Sorry, there is doubt over here.

Yep, that counts as very little.