Easter 1916 should not be celebrated with a military parade

[FutureTaoiseach]

There are also numerous publications that deal with the IRA and their tactics of the time. Similarities between the IRA then and the IRA post-69 are startling - though it's ok for the southern establishment to commemorate the "murder gang" from 1916-24 because it was made up of their Grandparents or parents and the kids weren't around at the time.

Well at least our freedom fighters in 1916-21 did not widely target civilians, unlike the Provos, RIRA, CIRA and RIRA.

[dail usher]

FutureTaoiseach has a point. Many of today's self proclaimed republicans seem to forget the important final paragraph of the 1916 Proclamation:

"..and we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity, or rapine."

We all know what inhumanity means, but what about "rapine". It is quite an old fashioned word and is usually defined as: "the act of despoiling a country in warfare [syn: rape]"

Synonyms of rapine include: burglary, crime, desecration, desolation, despoiling, destruction, laying waste, marauding, pillage, plunder, ransacking, ravaging, robbery, sacking, spoliation, stealing, theft.

So many of these could be applied to the provos campaign of the past 30 years. The signatories of the Proclamation would not recognise as legitimate such activities as: cigarette rackets, diesel smuggling, protection rackets, bank robberies, punishm,ent beatings, killings of Jean McConville, Robert McCartney, Rafferty etc.... especially where some key individuals were seen to personally benefit substantially.

[/b]

[georgedillon]

Badinage apparently thinks that the RIC who rounded up the hapless Casement and delivered him to the hangman deserve to be added to our Irish pantheon. I can't even argue with this kind of madness.

But s/he also makes the claim that "200,000 Irishmen were fighting against them on the Western Front". I am afraid this is quite off the mark. The fact is that, after an initial flurry of recruitment activity, often a kind of moral blackmail of their workers by big Unionist employers like Guinness, Dockrells etc., (see Francis Ledwidge being bullied into joining the British Army in order to please his patron "Lord" (sic) Dunsany) the appetite of Irish workers to go off and kill workers from countries with which they had no quarrel had considerably diminished by 1916. That's why the British Govt was looking to conscription by 1916, even more so by 1917.

The great fallacy of people like Badinage is that they glorify the slaughter of millions of people while at the same time working up a paroxysm at the few hundreds who were killed (mosly by Crown forces) in Easter Week. The other manifestation of their venality is that they think that the humanitarian giant Casement, who had confronted the vampire of imperialism in Africa and South America, is somehow less worthy of our admiration than the couple of lousy traitors who betrayed him for their RIC uniform. This scale of values reminds one of the Jewish notion of the "self-hating Jew", a figure that needs counselling and therapy in order to come to terms with his low self-esteem!
GD

[CJH]

Ask yourself what FF/FG had done between 1922-1969 to make the lot of a Catholic or Republican better ?

A hell of a lot more than SF ever did, that's for sure

[merle haggard]

there are only 2 political camps in Ireland . Those who support British rule and those who oppose it . This thread reminds of that admirably .

[rockofcashel]

Ask yourself what FF/FG had done between 1922-1969 to make the lot of a Catholic or Republican better ?

A hell of a lot more than SF ever did, that's for sure

Ohhh, very insightful analysis.

You know, I always wondered why they never bothered organising in the 6 counties, so that the Catholics there could show their massive appreciation.

You ever wonder about that ?

[edifice.]

...and? I've made several references to the Larne Gun Running already, and the fact that a) nationalists were not hung for their Howth gun running and b) it took place in peacetime and was considerably less treasonous (especially since the UVF and National Volunteers joined the British Army a few months later), than Casement's direct co-operation with German forces in Germany, in refutation of your statement "What unionists were hanged for similar actions?". You've been ignoring everything I say.

Ok, let's play it your way:

Oh my God! The fact that unionists weren't hung as traitors for importing guns from Germany before WW1, whereas Casement was hung for recruiting among German POW camps during WW1, is clear irrefutable evidence that the British only hang 'nationalists' for treason.

(Let's ignore the Howth gun running and William Joyce's death by hanging)

Is it possible for someone to be this stupid?

[badinage]

Badinage apparently thinks that the RIC who rounded up the hapless Casement and delivered him to the hangman deserve to be added to our Irish pantheon. I can't even argue with this kind of madness.

Well you'd be arguing against a strawman, because I don't believe that, nor have I ever said it. They were just cops, not good people, not bad people. Cops are reasonably similar in most western countries, and I'd imagine your average RIC officer wasn't all that different to your averag Garda officer today. I don't believe I've ever praised the RIC, so where you got the idea that I believe they "deserve to be added to our Irish pantheon" is beyond me.

But s/he also makes the claim that "200,000 Irishmen were fighting against them on the Western Front". I am afraid this is quite off the mark. The fact is that, after an initial flurry of recruitment activity, often a kind of moral blackmail of their workers by big Unionist employers like Guinness, Dockrells etc., (see Francis Ledwidge being bullied into joining the British Army in order to please his patron "Lord" (sic) Dunsany) the appetite of Irish workers to go off and kill workers from countries with which they had no quarrel had considerably diminished by 1916. That's why the British Govt was looking to conscription by 1916, even more so by 1917.

So how many Irishmen were in the British military in April 1916? (you're the one who keeps talking about my ignorant knowledge of history, so surely you should be able to come up with a more accurate figure)

The great fallacy of people like Badinage is that they glorify the slaughter of millions of people while at the same time working up a paroxysm at the few hundreds who were killed (mosly by Crown forces) in Easter Week.

I don't glorify WW1. I think it was madness.

The other manifestation of their venality is that they think that the humanitarian giant Casement, who had confronted the vampire of imperialism in Africa and South America, is somehow less worthy of our admiration than the couple of lousy traitors who betrayed him for their RIC uniform.

I never said anything positive about those the RIC men who arrested Casement nor did I say anything negative about Casement. I merely said that he was a traitor. Which he was from the state's point of view. The RIC served the state. Therefore they were under a legal duty to hand him over to be tried for treason. As his act of treason was quite large, it could not reasonably be expected of the RIC officers that they let him go and hope nobody notice.

Was Casement a "traitor" to his "people" (as opposed to his state and 'his' sovereign)? If the Irish people in April 1916 had no problem with his actions in Germany, then no. Was he a traitor to the Protestant people of Ulster (where he was raised after Protestant father died - his Catholic mother having died when he was a baby)? Clearly yes.

This scale of values reminds one of the Jewish notion of the "self-hating Jew", a figure that needs counselling and therapy in order to come to terms with his low self-esteem!
GD

What on earth is your problem with me? You've been appearing on various threads attacking me and now you've started on Gladstone. Are you one of those posters who can't handle other posters having different views than them?

[badinage]

Ok, let's play it your way:

Oh my God! The fact that unionists weren't hung as traitors for importing guns from Germany before WW1, whereas Casement was hung for recruiting among German POW camps during WW1, is clear irrefutable evidence that the British only hang 'nationalists' for treason.

(Let's ignore the Howth gun running and William Joyce's death by hanging)

Is it possible for someone to be this stupid?

I appreciate that you're not enthusiastic about articulating your arguments, but I really have no idea what you're talking about at this stage edifice. It says here that William Joyce was a unionist, albeit a Catholic one. He was hung for treason. His actions were far less treasonous that Casement's actions. To me, that refutes your claim that a unionist wouldn't be hung if he had done what Casement did. I see no reason to believe that Joyce wouldn't have been hung if he had been Protestant.

If you have another argument, or want to add to your current one, then go ahead, but if you just post another vague single sentence post, then I'll end our little debate (as usual).

If you think I'm completely missing the point, then obviously you failed to articulate your original point sufficiently. I thought you were saying that only nationalists would be hung for treason and Casement wouldn't have been hung if it had been a Protestant-Unionist rebellion.

[edifice.]

I appreciate that you're not enthusiastic about articulating your arguments, but I really have no idea what you're talking about at this stage edifice. It says here that William Joyce was a unionist, albeit a Catholic one. He was hung for treason. His actions were far less treasonous that Casement's actions. To me, that refutes your claim that a unionist wouldn't be hung if he had done what Casement did. If you have another argument, or want to add to your current one, then go ahead, but if you just post another vague single sentence post, then I'll end our little debate (as usual)

Stop trolling and learn your history.