Easter 1916 should not be celebrated with a military parade

[merle haggard]

gladstone i owe you an apology . i mistook you for badinage who did make that accusation .

sorry .

[Gladstone]

Ok.

I just figure we could have found someone less dodgey to buy our arms off, espechally snce they sold the same arms to the loyalists

[merle haggard]

nice people generally dont sell you arms in you case you shoot someone with them . Arms dealers tend to be the scum of the earth in most cases , dealing in death for a living . And the germans tended to make exceedingly good guns which is all that really matters when you need one .

[edifice.]

i.e. "I'm not bluffing, I swear. I just don't want to tell you."

Oh dear me! Badinage really doesn't know his history.

[badinage]

If I remember correctly the British fired on the crowd in Bachelors walk after the Howth gun landings , killing a number of them . No such firing took place at Larne despite a much larger arms shipment than the paltry amount from Childers yacht .

If a crowd of Loyalists started stoning British troops returning from Larne, with the same level of force, and the British troops didn't respond by opening fire, then you have a valid point. Otherwise you don't.

IIRC you don't.

As for Dan Breen if i remember correctly he acted under the authority of an elected national government.

He did? At what point did this government come into existence? Are you saying orders were sent from the Mansion House on the morning of the 21st January to steal explosives and the use of lethal force had been authorised? Or are you saying the government came into existence as soon as the election results came in in late 1918, and you know that Breen received orders at some point between then and 21/1/1919?

Even if Breen did recieve orders, does anyone believe he wouldn't have fought the RIC if he hadn't? Even provisional republicains have frequently said on this site that the IRA existed before the election of November 1918, never sought a democratic mandate, never cared if it got one, and would have fought the Tan War regardless.

i.e. "I'm not bluffing, I swear. I just don't want to tell you."

Oh dear me! Badinage really doesn't know his history.

How far do you want to take this? Are you saying for certain, in front of everyone here, that a unionist went to Germany during the First World War, conspired with the German armed forces to raise a military unit to fight with the Germans on the Western Front against the British, and to launch a rebellion in Ireland which killed over a thousand people, and wasn't subsequently found guilty of treason and hung?

[edifice.]

How far do you want to take this? Are you saying for certain, in front of everyone here, that a unionist went to Germany during the First World War, conspired with the German armed forces to raise a military unit to fight with the Germans on the Western Front against the British, and to launch a rebellion in Ireland which killed over a thousand people, and wasn't subsequently found guilty of treason and hung?

There, there. Smiffy will be along soon and you can deny Unionist treason with him in irrelevant 'what if' heaven.

Then again to avoid tiresome noise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larne_Gun_Running

[EastGalway]

There seem to be so many experts here on 1916 and the 1919-1921 (War of Independence) and 1922-23 (Civil War) wars.

Maybe some of you experts could answer the following questions:

- how many people were killed in 1916, 1919-1921 and 1922-23?
- how many were civilians/RIC/British Army/Auxiliary/Tan/IRA in each conflict?
- which military unit killed the most civilians?
- how many RIC men were killed in open combat and armed/how many were killed coming out of mass, hotels, shot while peddling their bikes around country roads?
- how many people were executed by the British authorities/Free State/NI authorities?
- how many women and children were killed by British forces/Irish forces?

My point here is that to date not one historian or other commentator has bothered to compile this basic information. I've done some work on it myself and to be honest, I am very surprised at the findings. While my research is ongoing, one thing is apparent (but was never highlighted in my school history books):

- only a small amount of "Crown Forces" casualities were Black and Tan/Auxiliary/British Army. The vast majority were RIC men, and a substantial portion of these were shot off duty and unarmed in incidents that cannot be seen as heroic in any way. An case-by-case analysis of each shooting suggests that the majority were easy targets and picked off easily and not in great heroic battles. It is also the case that the killings of RIC members caused considerable shock among the population, which is all forgotton about now. Thus, talk about a "Tan War" is rubbish.

Until some basic statistical information can be compiled on the death toll between 1916 and 1923 as well as information on each case (similar to Malcolm Sutton's book on the Troubles), simplisitic myths are going to remain in circulation.

[DSCH]

Until some basic statistical information can be compiled on the death toll between 1916 and 1923 as well as information on each case (similar to Malcolm Sutton's book on the Troubles), simplisitic myths are going to remain in circulation.

Yes we need more complex myths.

[badinage]

How far do you want to take this? Are you saying for certain, in front of everyone here, that a unionist went to Germany during the First World War, conspired with the German armed forces to raise a military unit to fight with the Germans on the Western Front against the British, and to launch a rebellion in Ireland which killed over a thousand people, and wasn't subsequently found guilty of treason and hung?

There, there. Smiffy will be along soon and you can deny Unionist treason with him in irrelevant 'what if' heaven.

Then again to avoid tiresome noise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larne_Gun_Running

...and? I've made several references to the Larne Gun Running already, and the fact that a) nationalists were not hung for their Howth gun running and b) it took place in peacetime and was considerably less treasonous (especially since the UVF and National Volunteers joined the British Army a few months later), than Casement's direct co-operation with German forces in Germany, in refutation of your statement "What unionists were hanged for similar actions?". You've been ignoring everything I say.

Ok, let's play it your way:

Oh my God! The fact that unionists weren't hung as traitors for importing guns from Germany before WW1, whereas Casement was hung for recruiting among German POW camps during WW1, is clear irrefutable evidence that the British only hang 'nationalists' for treason.

(Let's ignore the Howth gun running and William Joyce's death by hanging)

[Trojanhorse]

There seem to be so many experts here on 1916 and the 1919-1921 (War of Independence) and 1922-23 (Civil War) wars.

Maybe some of you experts could answer the following questions:

- how many people were killed in 1916, 1919-1921 and 1922-23?
- how many were civilians/RIC/British Army/Auxiliary/Tan/IRA in each conflict?
- which military unit killed the most civilians?
- how many RIC men were killed in open combat and armed/how many were killed coming out of mass, hotels, shot while peddling their bikes around country roads?
- how many people were executed by the British authorities/Free State/NI authorities?
- how many women and children were killed by British forces/Irish forces?

My point here is that to date not one historian or other commentator has bothered to compile this basic information. I've done some work on it myself and to be honest, I am very surprised at the findings. While my research is ongoing, one thing is apparent (but was never highlighted in my school history books):

- only a small amount of "Crown Forces" casualities were Black and Tan/Auxiliary/British Army. The vast majority were RIC men, and a substantial portion of these were shot off duty and unarmed in incidents that cannot be seen as heroic in any way. An case-by-case analysis of each shooting suggests that the majority were easy targets and picked off easily and not in great heroic battles. It is also the case that the killings of RIC members caused considerable shock among the population, which is all forgotton about now. Thus, talk about a "Tan War" is rubbish.

Until some basic statistical information can be compiled on the death toll between 1916 and 1923 as well as information on each case (similar to Malcolm Sutton's book on the Troubles), simplisitic myths are going to remain in circulation.

To be honest I think the stats on those killed is quite boring and really of little relevence to the debates on this period. War is war and there will be an inevitable death toll , what is so compelling about this period is the level of argumentation and its diversity. There is a very idealist veiw held of this period by many of the Irish population, and it is a well known fact that people perception was somewhat different at the time. There are a number of publication which deal with the reality and one of the best being 'The British Campaign in Ireland' which deals with some of the points you have bought up.