Nationalism and Republicanism

[St Disibod]

We keep hearing about a battle for Republicanism in the media. Fine Gael joined Sinn Féin in celebrating 100 years- though of course as far away from eachother as possible. The soldiers of destiny are planning a march outside the GPO and when McDowell is not wrapping himself up in the Irish flag he's spouting off his republican credentials.

Did Nationanalism fall into a ditch somewhere? Why is the tug of war over republicanism?

Are we too "multicultural", is the Peace process to delicate for it or are we just so embarrassed about commonly maidens dancing at crossroads that we just can't stomach the idea of a unique Irish identity?

Opinions anyone?

[commentator]

The race to acquire republican credentials is curious I admit. Now that republicanism has been binned by the acceptance of the Union and Her majesty's legitimacy in the GFA it seems that shorn of danger and real meaning the word regains its positive image. It seems that hollowed out of meaning it retains an emotional pull but only if hollowed out. Any real live irish republicanism has been binned as i say.

[FutureTaoiseach]

The race to acquire republican credentials is curious I admit. Now that republicanism has been binned by the acceptance of the Union and Her majesty's legitimacy in the GFA it seems that shorn of danger and real meaning the word regains its positive image. It seems that hollowed out of meaning it retains an emotional pull but only if hollowed out. Any real live irish republicanism has been binned as i say.

I disagree. Are you seriously saying the 95% of the Southern Irish electorate who voted for the GFA (me included) were voting for permanent partition? I don't believe that is true. It is not true.

[sean1]

I agree FutureTaoiseach but it has to be accepted that there are no real political parties in Ireland that can say they are republican and pro-actively pro-reunited Ireland.

FF/FG- are corrupt careerists. FG may not be as corrupt but they are West British.

The PD's are a party based on economics. Mary Harney is married to a top man, if not the top, in IBEC.

SF and the RSF etc. are sectarian.

Labour don't care.

The Greens don't have any policy on Nationalism from what I know.

The SP are anti-Nationalist.


The genuine Republicans in the Dáil, are some independents.

There is a real consituency of genuine republicans out there. In the media they were represented by The Sunday Tribune and The Sunday Business Post. Now The Sunday Tribune is mostly owned by Tony O'Reilly and since he took them over a couple of years ago their journalistic standard have gone downhill. Their nationalist ethos is gone.

The Sunday Business Post doesn't seem as tuned into politics as it is to business, which mighten't be surprising as it is primarily a business paper.

The real problem is the media. Most of the television stations we watch are English. That's not to say that they promote an anti-Republican line, apart from Sky News and BBC News, but that that they promote a lazy who cares attitude which infects Irish life, particularly unconsciously.

TV3 is bad as well, and RTE can be.

It is generally accepted that the fall in journalistic standards in Ireland over the last few years has in large part been because of the influence of the British tabloids.

We need to get more active in the Irish media. The word media comes from the Latin medii, or something like that, which means "They voice of the people."

Is it any good having a Dáil reflecting the Irish people and a media out on their own world?

[DOD]

SF and the RSF etc. are sectarian.




The genuine Republicans in the Dáil, are some independents.

Surely you don't believe that ************************e, do you? At least now I know I was right when I was telling someone (possibly barryw) that you weren't a shinner. You seem to be saying that it is impossible to be a republican if you are part of a political organisation?

[sean1]

I believe that it is impossible to be a genuine republican and actively pro-united Ireland in a broad sense and a member of any of the current political parties in Ireland.

What do you think of my other points or are you only interested in defending SF instead of working out the nuances of there being a re-united Ireland?

[DOD]

I believe that it is impossible to be a genuine republican and actively pro-united Ireland in a broad sense and a member of any of the current political parties in Ireland.

What do you think of my other points or are you only interested in defending SF instead of working out the nuances of there being a re-united Ireland?

Well in fairness, when your a member of a party where many of the people you deal with have been in prison for the republican ideal, you are going to be defensive if someone tries to claim you are not genuine republicans. As for being sectarian, have you missed the fact we have among the most progressive immigration policies, that we are strongly anti-clerical and have one of the largest numbers of non-national members of any party? The point you made was absurd and I was merely pointing out the absurdity.

As for your other points, of course you are on the one track, but are being unfair to the others to say they cannot be in a party and be republican. I cannot think of what you would call Joe Costello for example, other than republican.

[XRoot]

I don't believe that is true. It is not true.

There is now't more convincing than the Argument from Personal Incredulity.

Is it possible that the sacred race of Hibernians frankly don't give a damn?

[sean1]

Well in fairness, when your a member of a party where many of the people you deal with have been in prison for the republican ideal, you are going to be defensive if someone tries to claim you are not genuine republicans. As for being sectarian, have you missed the fact we have among the most progressive immigration policies, that we are strongly anti-clerical and have one of the largest numbers of non-national members of any party?

Why on earth would you be anti-clerical?

As for your other points, of course you are on the one track, but are being unfair to the others to say they cannot be in a party and be republican. I cannot think of what you would call Joe Costello for example, other than republican.

Do you mean I am on the right track? Possibly you might wan't to add on to what I said so we can have some meaningul debate, instead of critcising each other.

I don't support any of the parties in Ireland but I do work with them on certain issues.

Is Joe Costello the only other Republican that is not in SF in the Dáil? He might have been for keeping the HQ of 1916 but sin é. Are their nationalists in the UUP? Similarly are their republicans in a party that doesn't care about republicanism e.g Labour?

I would question what kind of republic you want also. Where would you view the Irish language. You are from Cork. There are loads of Gaelscoils and Irish named housing estates in Cork and yet you can't speak it. What would be the difference in a Republic of Ireland and a Republic of England for example?

[DOD]

I would question what kind of republic you want also. Where would you view the Irish language. You are from Cork. There are loads of Gaelscoils and Irish named housing estates in Cork and yet you can't speak it. What would be the difference in a Republic of Ireland and a Republic of England for example?

Umm, where I come from, we have a gaeilscoil, but it was set up when I was already in sixth class in national school, so it was too late for me. Irish was one subject out of seven or eight in school, so I couldn't give it the priority it should have had. Are you seriously suggesting that fluency in Irish is essential to being a republican? That is cultural nationalism, not republicanism. You ask me to engage in debate and then you start with patronising, self satisfied, gaeilgeoir bullsh1t about how I'm not republican because I don't have fluent Irish. How is that debate? I will more than likely be fluent in five or ten years, will I suddenly be republican then? Will the fact I can speak Irish help the state of mental health services or the lack of expenditure in disadvantaged communities? I know gaeilgeoiri who are out and out blueshirts, my language is important to me, but if it is a choice between speaking Irish and campaigning for meaningful social change, I will choose the latter, as would any republican worthy of the name.