Henry Kissinger: "2009 will mark the beginning of a new world order."

[Almanac]

Bush was accused of being a Satanist for using the sign by people who weren't aware that 'Hook 'em horns' is the slogan hand signal of the University of Texas.

I see...emm...and that other fella from Iran is heavy into the American football too?...didn't know that but you live and learn, and then theres King Abdullah, and Sarkozy and Berlusconi, in pictures you can see all over the web, all big into the American football.....you'd never think it...amazing altogether....btw there's this wonderful bridge we have over here...going cheap!lol.
Only messing but seriously whoever spins you that yarn about the longhorns, as we say out here, don't mind them!lol. Its been a recognised satanic sign since Methusala, approximately , and its the way Satanists greet and recognise one another.

Er... it is actually the hand signal of the University of Texas. I'm not making it up. Do you think Bush and his wife were giving a Satanic salutation to a roomful of Christians? Look, I've seen all the photos of leaders left, right and centre, including Pat Robertson, the Pope, Catholic bishops etc, all supposedly for no apparent reason giving public Satanic salutations. Surely they would be a little more careful, less obvious. Does it not occur to you that some of the photos might have been doctored- you know, photoshop? In any case, there are doubts about the authenticity of some of them. Don't get me wrong, I know there are real Satanists, but they are not a unified group and there are no international covens where they meet. About the closest is Bohemian Grove but, aberrant and all as it is, it's more paganism than Satanism.

And, there are a wide variety of meanings to this hand signal, just as there are to many other gestures:

• In baseball, the gesture, especially when the forearm is rotated, indicates "two outs." In the common signal for "two" (the index and middle finger raised), the fingers may be too close together for distant outfielders to distinguish the two fingers from one. Elston Howard is commonly credited with originating this use.[citation needed]
• Similarly, in American football, a referee will use the sign to indicate "second down".
• In volleyball the sign can be used (the fingers often points downwards) by the setter to communicate with the attacker, frequently to signal a double quick-attack play with the middle and right-side attackers.
• The Blue Man Group, in their Megastar 2.0 Tour performances, posit a comedic false origin of this gesture as a tribute to rock legend Floppie the Banjo Clown, a character whose hair is arranged with two large vertical protuberances causing his head to resemble the gesture.
• This is also a part of an unofficial sign for "****************************************" in American Sign Language. See: Profanity in ASL
• In WWE, it is the signature taunt of Edge. When Edge walks to the ring he performs his signature taunt whilst his signature fireworks go off. Edge's ex-girlfriend Lita, as well as former in-character proteges Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder, also used this as their signature pose, though Lita's use was before joining with Edge while Hawkins and Ryder's was during their association with him.[citation needed] Pro wrestling referees similarly use the sign to represent a "two count", as opposed to the first two fingers. This use is similar to baseball's use.
• Many Houstonians in Texas use the symbol to represent "The H" as in H-Town, because of the hands being in the shape of an H.
• In Hinduism and Buddhism, this gesture is known as the Karana Mudra. Its use in dispelling evil or negative influences is a noticeable juxtaposition to the contemporary uses of this sign.

Look at it another way with respect to Bush. I am sure you would agree that he was a member of the Skull and Bones and are the symbols and practices of that society not clearly Occultic? And, by reading even the established media, you can see that he attends the Bohemian Grove thing in California. That also is clearly Occultic, how could a sincere Christain be involved in worshipping an owl, or anything remotely similiar to such a practice, which again is pretty blatently happening at that Grove? So consequently it is a short step from that to admitting that Bush must be aware of Occultic symbols, and in all probability is using those symbols because he is involved in it?

Yes, Bush was a Bonesman. The trouble is that there are so many different groups and so many different theories about who is most powerful or actually in control- the Freemasons / Illuminati, Skull and Bones (eg, Professor Antony Sutton pins nearly all the blame for American policy on this group), Satanists, Black Nobility, the Committee of 300, Society of the Elect / Round Table, Zionists, Royal Institute of International Affairs, Bilderbergers, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission etc. Clearly I am concerned about the influence of covert forces, otherwise I wouldn't write about them, but I try to limit myself to what can be demonstrated by evidence.

For me international politics works a lot like national politics, its just a puppet show put on for your amusement, street theatre with both sides in on the joke on the ordinary people. And also, like national politics, you should watch the 'mood music'...

That, for me anyway, is maybe the best way to follow international politics, imagine the news as attempted 'brainwashing' of the public watching it and ask why, as opposed to giving any heed to supposed French/US splits etc which the media entertains us with.

Yeah but I mentioned that it had been reported from inside a Bilderberg meeting- long before it became public. And by someone very experienced and very reliable, Daniel Estulin, who is also incidentally very good at seeing through propaganda.

You know more about those documents than I but my impression is that those plans were at least semi-public documents at the time?

No. National Security Study Memorandum (NSSM) 200. It was only declassified under Freedom of Information years later, which then led to a Brazilian congressional investigation and the discoveries I highlighted previously.

[scolairebocht]

I'm not making it up. Do you think Bush and his wife were giving a Satanic salutation to a roomful of Christians? Look, I've seen all the photos of leaders left, right and centre, including Pat Robertson, the Pope, Catholic bishops etc, all supposedly for no apparent reason giving public Satanic salutations. Surely they would be a little more careful, less obvious.
Sure what do they care, the vast majority of ordinary people take no interest and have no knowledge of these symbols, and even where they do the implications of such a vast 'conspiracy' are so daunting that they will naturally make excuses for their heroes using them. Look at all the media, that stuff is everywhere. Star shapes, both inverted and upright, are Occult symbols too and I think it was the American Idol show that had a huge star on stage as the contestants performed. Look at Big Brother, another hugely hyped thing, and see the image of the eye that was on the machine where the contestants 'confessed' etc etc.

but I try to limit myself to what can be demonstrated by evidence.
Well thats fair enough and by right we shouldn't be arguing but I just think that this Occult stuff is as proven as anything else? You have all this eye witness testimony on youtube etc? As far as I know there is as much first hand testimony that has emerged about the Occult groups as there has been from Bilderbergs, if not quite a bit moreso?
Look at it another way, if you take a tramp down the aisles of your average video/video game store and look at the titles surely you would be struck at the amount of Occult themes that are there? Say the Harry Potter and the Dan Brown books/films as an example, they have clearly got bucketfulls of publicity and funding which, for me anyway, usually indicates the hand of the powers that be. And why? Well maybe they want people to get into this area and become Occultists like themselves? Some of these works as well have a suspicious slant in favour of modern Occult groups. If you read The Da Vinci Code, a work that has got so much publicity that many people out there have read no other book, it mentions a modern Satanic ritual that one of the characters accidentally witnessed and it comes across as a kind of harmless but ancient and wonderful thing. I was just watching the trailers for Angels and Demons on youtube (I read the book but didn't see the film) and there the Illuminati are portrayed as a wonderful group of scientists, sculptors and artists who were oppressed by the Church.

Maybe another way to look at the Occult influence in this conspiracy is to hear the testimony from all those survivors of this mind/brain 'programming', most of whom also describe being subjected to Satanic Ritual Abuse. e.g. Lynne Sharman, in the link listed below, says that:

"Almost all of the survivors - certainly over 90% - describe having been either consciously or wittingly offered up to the cult abuse and then to the mind control experimentation that followed."

So if you believe their accounts then you have to believe that there is a link between the powers that be and the Occult?

Yeah but I mentioned that it had been reported from inside a Bilderberg meeting- long before it became public. And by someone very experienced and very reliable, Daniel Estulin, who is also incidentally very good at seeing through propaganda.
Ok well maybe you are right and I am wrong about that, maybe the French and Americans were genuinely arguing at that time but if so they certainly are singing from the same hymn sheet since Sarkozy arrived! I am just very sceptical about those news reports normally...

No. National Security Study Memorandum (NSSM) 200. It was only declassified under Freedom of Information years later, which then led to a Brazilian congressional investigation and the discoveries I highlighted previously.
Yes but I still think that they frequently put a spin, a sort of sanitised misdirection, on even their secret documents, and this idea of trying to solve poverty in the Third World is frequently one of the lines they take. If you watch that video by George Hunt he makes that very point, he said you have to sort of 'decode' the spin all the time when you are trying to understand what they are saying, even when they are talking in secret meetings.
As an example of this kind of misdirection of even secret documents consider the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. That document has been argued about for about a century but some of these Illuminati defectors and researchers, that are listed above, have cleared up the mystery a bit. It is said now that the document was drawn up by Pike as notes for briefings that he, or his successors, gave to those involved in the Palladian Rite in Europe in the last years of the 19th century. The reference to 'Elders' is apparently a common Occultic term, and the 'Goyim' bit refers to a kind of 'human cattle' and not to Gentiles. They are saying now that when it was published in Russia it was deliberately spun as a document drawn up by Jews, and the English translator innocently preserved that spin, whereas actually it is reported to have been this Illuminati document with this kind of deliberate misdirection added into it. While unfortunately there are a lot of Jewish families connected into this 'conspiracy', nonetheless apparently it is not at all the case that the Jewish faith or people as a whole are at all popular with these 'powers that be.'


Here a few more links anyway on the question of survivors of this mind/brain 'programming':
Lynn Moss-Sharman interviewed on camera here: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q-7-MiAau4"]YouTube- MKULTRA survivor speaks 1 of 2[/nomedia] , and in a radio interview she says that her story is also tied into the question of Satanic families and the ongoing abuse: ckln16 .
Claudia Mullen, interviewed in March 1995 in Washingon D.C. by the President's Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=het0FIAtH3M"]YouTube- Mind Control Survivors' Testimony 1995 - 3 - claudia mullen[/nomedia] .
Christina Denicola, also interviewed by the above mentioned committee: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXDASDDrDkM"]YouTube- MKULTRA Victim Testimony B:[/nomedia] .
Blanche Chavoustie, who was also interviewed by Wayne Morris for his radio program: MCF: CKLN 18 - Blanche Chavoustie .

Some of the victims of this technology, and a few of their therapists and lawyers, prepared a video to highlight their case which you can see here: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StNc7Bt3QzI"]YouTube- MKULTRA group 1 of 3[/nomedia] . There you can hear the short testimonies of Kathy Lewis, from Ontario, Susan Benson, from Detroit, Chuck Davenport, from Michigan, Kathleen Sullivan, from Reading Pennsylvania, who gives her account in more detail here: Kathleen Sullivan's '01 Conference Presentation , Terry Barker, from Toronto and Becky McDonald, from Pittsburgh.
Robert Logie, one of Cameron's Canadian patients that successfully sued the CIA and so proved their support for this mind 'programming' phenonomon, interviewed here in 2008: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDEwm0WEmuo"]YouTube- Robert Logie Interview[/nomedia] .

So is the reality of this not 'demonstrated by the evidence' as much as anything else is, or?

[scolairebocht]

I was going to add this in here: http://www.politics.ie/forum/zoo/164...card-game.html , but its been zoofied so I thought I should add it to this thread. This is a really really interesting few tapes that have been added to youtube recently and I thought I would begin by being clear as to who are the personalities mentioned here:

Dr Lawrence Dunegan was made an MD in the University of Pittsburgh in 1963, in the late 60s early 70s period he taught alongside Donna Nativio in teaching the first on the job educational program for public health nurses in Allegheny County, in 1984 he was the Instructor of Clinical Pedriatrics at the same university, and under that title co-signed a letter, alongwith a number of other medical personnel, to President Reagan on the abortion issue, and he died on the 9th of January 2004.

Dr Richard Day, was born in Manhattan and graduated as an MD from Harvard Medical School in 1931, was associate professor at the College of Physicians and Surgeons at Columbia University from 1935 to 1953, professor and chairman of the department of pediatrics in the Downstate Medical School in Brooklyn from 1953 to 1956, professor and chairman of the department of pediatrics at the University of Pittsburgh from 1956 to 1965, during which he taught Dr Dunegan, national medical director of Planned Parenthood from 1965-1968 - and its probably here that he tripped across the information that was revealed below -, professor of pediatrics at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in Manhattan from 1968-1971, in 1986 he received the highest, Howland, Award from the American Pediatric Society, and died at his home in Westbrook, Conneticut, on the 15th of June 1989.

Randy Engel, is a well known journalist and writer who specialised on Vietnam issues in the early 60s and later became a leading figure in the anti-abortion movement in the US. She has written a number of books including one that alleges that the Catholic Church in the US was effectively taken over by a homosexual clique that included Cardinal's Spellman, Bernardin and Wright and Pope Paul VI. That isn't important here anyway but the point is that she was a friend of Dr Dunegan's, from the anti-abortion movement I think, and it seems she inspired him to make these tapes. Then later in 1991 she interviewed Dr Dunegan and the later interview was added to the other tapes and they were nationally sold through traditional Catholic and anti-abortion groups in the US.

Anyway the story goes that Dr Dunegan was a member of the Pediatric Society in Pittsburgh and they hold about four meetings a year where they have a meal and then listen to some outside lecturer give a paper on some topic relevant to Pediatrics. So he attended one such meeting on the 20th of March 1969 where the aforementioned Dr Richard Day gave a talk entitled "Family Planning: Infant Mortality, Gene Frequency, Abortion and Other Considerations" at the Lamont restaurant in Pittsburgh. Although he was told not to, he took some notes of the meeting on paper napkins (that reference is via Dr Stanley Monteith, who later interviewed Dr Dunegan) and with those notes he recorded these tapes in 1988 as his recollection of what Dr Day said at the talk. So without anymore ado here are those tapes made in 1988, i.e. six youtube videos in total and its well worth listening to the end: .