Real or Fake?

[adrem]

Whilst there is absolutely no doubt that the government made a balls of the budget - particularly the medical card, and income levy issues - I can't help but feel that there is (at least) an element of make believe about some of the protests and the outrage.

For example the commonly roared "Fianna Fail don't care about the elderly" and variations of that theme. Well - does that really stand up to scrutiny? Remembering my very first sentence please !!

If we look at what Fianna Fail delivered to the "elderly" (probably not very PC a phrase but I'm probably not very PC) over the years -

What was the old age pension in 1997? What was the tax rate in 1997? What was the threshold for paying tax in 1997? Given the view that old people and lower paid seem to be hand in hand at the moment (in the context of this debate) can we really say that Fianna Fail haven't put the lower paid to the forefront in repeated budgets? Did CORI not commend a number of budgets for doing just that?

My point is simply this - are we really saying that Fianna Fails making an ass of this budget and their removing the automatic gold card equates to the reversal of every positive that they have previously done for the less well off elderly?

Why did the media not encourage the elderly of Ireland to protest at every FG and Lab office up and down the country when both parties opposed the extension of the medical cards in the first place and voted against every budget in the last 10/20 years that increased older peoples incomes?

Is this real or media inspired fakery built around the media needing to make a story - given that advertising revenues are and will continue to tank.

The argument is made that the principle is at stake here - universality. But is that really the principle that we should be fighting for? A principle that at it's heart sees the very wealthy get benefits they don't actually need? A principle (when coupled with sh1te negotiating) ends up with the real cash beneficiaries being the GPs - who by the way argued vociferously against the scheme when it was first announced. Does Lab and FG really believe that a universal gold card system as constituted pre-budget is fair? is equitable? is appropriate? Maybe they do but I find it hard to believe they aren't faking a bit.

And what about the wider issues - now that the medical card and income levy have been rowed back on (well partially at least) there seems to be a list forming of all the other cutbacks that need to be reversed. Do people genuinely believe we can operate without these cutbacks or are they simply applying the squeaky wheel approach? Do people grasp the concept of our needing to cut back and that cut backs mean people don't have as much money to spend. Whilst it is undoubtedly human nature for the people asked to cut back to resist - why is it that the broader media/opposition/society tends to abstain from the debate or attack the cutbacks. Do we really honestly believe that the country can operate without any of the cutbacks? What's the alternative? And please don't say "reform the public service" because that is meaningless - what's the actual real alternative.

I'm rambling a bit I know - but I really don't get this push by media and opposition to just say no? That's not an option. Honesty requires those in positions of responsibilty to point that out. OK the opposition will oppose but the media shouldn't follow suit blindly - or is that what we want now? Do we really believe that the government is always wrong when they announce cutbacks (remember my first sentence please !!). I recall checking on various websites (and before that on the newspaper) every budget to see what extra money I was getting - because I was ALWAYS winning in EVERY budget. All of a sudden we have one budget (yes there will be more) where I am worse off and immediately all rattles go flying out of the pram. I'm appalled. I'm outraged. This is most callous and mean spirited attack ever. I will not stand for this. etc etc.

Is this real? I'm thinking maybe some is but a large amount of it is fake.

[pfkf]

Well I was there yesterday in the crowd, and believe me the elderly people in Ireland are livid about FF even thinking of doing this, let alone giving it a standing ovation.

I was there before anyone had started to speak and there were 15,000 people chanting "Fianna Fail out".

It was extremely passionite and very real. Fianna fail have lost the trust of the elderly and it will take something special to win back even a small amount.

[katy brock]

I don't believe the country can afford to give a medical card to every over 70.

I doubt if anyone sincerely does.

The trouble is who gave them the cards in the first place and who gave the GP's such a sweet deal?

The government is now (rightly or wrongly) perceived as being weak and incompetent.

It's as if Cowen, Lenihan and Harney forgot the elderly have votes (and they use them). Fianna fail have bribed and bluffed their way into office for years and have forgotten they only hold office on sufferance.

I don't believe Fianna Fail have reached their Stalingrad yet though. That should come soon enough when the banks start demanding actual money(that we haven't got) to keep afloat.

[Podolski]

I think it's time to take on this claptrap about "Gold Cards" - it's the doctor who has the gold card, not the patient- that's who makes the gold out of the shoddy deal done by Fianna Fail in 2001 - not the patients fault. This gold card crap is the product of lazy journalism.

[coc]

...This gold card crap is the product of lazy journalism.

The product of Mount Street more like. A meme like that doesn't emerge spontaneously.

[jc_ie]

I don't believe the country can afford to give a medical card to every over 70.

I doubt if anyone sincerely does.

I do.

I believe that if we got rid of Harney and really took things by the scruff of the neck we could have our own equivelent of the NHS or whatever they call it on mainland europe.

Before anyone even things to critise the failing in the NHS, take one look at our "system" and tell me which one you prefer.

Id rather move towards a european model of a healthcare system of preventive measures then an american one of exclusion and private only health"care". If that means higher taxes to pay for it. So be it.

Also, People need to avoid the smoke screen of the "gold card".

The real issue is the brand medicines which is costing more then the GP side of it.

And before anyone raises the "But the millonaires... "

1)Do you really think they bother with the medical card instead of a well funded private scheme?
2)If they have paid their income taxes etc in Ireland and are entitiled to be here then you know what. They should have it if they wanted it. They certainly paid for it.
3) The income limits changed how many times in the space of week. Why do you think people dont trust them because of that ability?
4) If the logic is "But the millionares can afford it themselves..." then that logic extends to the free travel pass, heating allowance, Tv Licence, Pension.... And people might seriouly wonder what else might be on the chopping block.

For those reasons and more.
Real. Very real.

[katy brock]

I do.

I believe that if we got rid of Harney and really took things by the scruff of the neck we could have our own equivelent of the NHS or whatever they call it on mainland europe.

Before anyone even things to critise the failing in the NHS, take one look at our "system" and tell me which one you prefer.

Id rather move towards a european model of a healthcare system of preventive measures then an american one of exclusion and private only health"care". If that means higher taxes to pay for it. So be it.

Also, People need to avoid the smoke screen of the "gold card".

The real issue is the brand medicines which is costing more then the GP side of it.

And before anyone raises the "But the millonaires... "

1)Do you really think they bother with the medical card instead of a well funded private scheme?
2)If they have paid their income taxes etc in Ireland and are entitiled to be here then you know what. They should have it if they wanted it. They certainly paid for it.
3) The income limits changed how many times in the space of week. Why do you think people dont trust them because of that ability?
4) If the logic is "But the millionares can afford it themselves..." then that logic extends to the free travel pass, heating allowance, Tv Licence, Pension.... And people might seriouly wonder what else might be on the chopping block.

For those reasons and more.
Real. Very real.

I agree with your sentiments - we should have a proper health service but I still maintain we can't afford it(not the way we do things) and have become so corrupt and incompetent over the years it is beyond our ken to run a whelk stand, never mind a country.
Even if we weren't so broke, the money would be hijacked by the government to bail out their cronies. The sick, young and plain gullible will always get a raw deal here.

The medical cards were doled out as a vote grabber. Nobody cared less about the elderly. Just their votes. Fantastic way to run a country.

[toxic avenger]

Whilst there is absolutely no doubt that the government made a balls of the budget - particularly the medical card, and income levy issues - I can't help but feel that there is (at least) an element of make believe about some of the protests and the outrage.

For example the commonly roared "Fianna Fail don't care about the elderly" and variations of that theme. Well - does that really stand up to scrutiny? Remembering my very first sentence please !!

If we look at what Fianna Fail delivered to the "elderly" (probably not very PC a phrase but I'm probably not very PC) over the years -

What was the old age pension in 1997? What was the tax rate in 1997? What was the threshold for paying tax in 1997? Given the view that old people and lower paid seem to be hand in hand at the moment (in the context of this debate) can we really say that Fianna Fail haven't put the lower paid to the forefront in repeated budgets? Did CORI not commend a number of budgets for doing just that?

My point is simply this - are we really saying that Fianna Fails making an ass of this budget and their removing the automatic gold card equates to the reversal of every positive that they have previously done for the less well off elderly?

Why did the media not encourage the elderly of Ireland to protest at every FG and Lab office up and down the country when both parties opposed the extension of the medical cards in the first place and voted against every budget in the last 10/20 years that increased older peoples incomes?

Is this real or media inspired fakery built around the media needing to make a story - given that advertising revenues are and will continue to tank.

The argument is made that the principle is at stake here - universality. But is that really the principle that we should be fighting for? A principle that at it's heart sees the very wealthy get benefits they don't actually need? A principle (when coupled with sh1te negotiating) ends up with the real cash beneficiaries being the GPs - who by the way argued vociferously against the scheme when it was first announced. Does Lab and FG really believe that a universal gold card system as constituted pre-budget is fair? is equitable? is appropriate? Maybe they do but I find it hard to believe they aren't faking a bit.

And what about the wider issues - now that the medical card and income levy have been rowed back on (well partially at least) there seems to be a list forming of all the other cutbacks that need to be reversed. Do people genuinely believe we can operate without these cutbacks or are they simply applying the squeaky wheel approach? Do people grasp the concept of our needing to cut back and that cut backs mean people don't have as much money to spend. Whilst it is undoubtedly human nature for the people asked to cut back to resist - why is it that the broader media/opposition/society tends to abstain from the debate or attack the cutbacks. Do we really honestly believe that the country can operate without any of the cutbacks? What's the alternative? And please don't say "reform the public service" because that is meaningless - what's the actual real alternative.

I'm rambling a bit I know - but I really don't get this push by media and opposition to just say no? That's not an option. Honesty requires those in positions of responsibilty to point that out. OK the opposition will oppose but the media shouldn't follow suit blindly - or is that what we want now? Do we really believe that the government is always wrong when they announce cutbacks (remember my first sentence please !!). I recall checking on various websites (and before that on the newspaper) every budget to see what extra money I was getting - because I was ALWAYS winning in EVERY budget. All of a sudden we have one budget (yes there will be more) where I am worse off and immediately all rattles go flying out of the pram. I'm appalled. I'm outraged. This is most callous and mean spirited attack ever. I will not stand for this. etc etc.

Is this real? I'm thinking maybe some is but a large amount of it is fake.

I felt that, while I support the principle of universality as the hallmark of a civilised society, the behaviour of some of those protesting came close to a mob mentality, which I thought was particularly inappropriate inside a Church. But that doesn't mean that they were wrong.

As you said, the budget was an ill-thought out cock-up, politically insane given the meagre savings the policy would have clawed back, and morally unjustifiable given the fact that it was the same Government, more or less, that introduced universality ( a good policy, albeit inspired by political cynicism). However, you are right that even the best thought out and fairest budget would have had to involve cuts that cause some pain. And there's the Government's problem now. They announced an unjustifiable and politically damaging measure that they then had to row back on in a state of panic, and now every interest group, including those with far less cause to be described as disadvantaged, will be out screaming and shouting to get those measures that affect them rescinded too. I'm thinking particularly of our very well-fed farmers, who will be out in numbers next week playing the poor mouth. You are correct that there is a deal of hypocrisy on the part of some opposition politicians on this (I'm thinking of Reilly above all), and that there has to be a line drawn by the Government. But the pickle the Government are in is entirely of their own making, they picked a fight with the wrong people, on a morally and politically unwinnable premise, and now they are facing the consequences. Those include the wrath of the farmers and others, who will jump on the bandwagon despite being way outside the definition of a 'vulnerable and disadvantaged' section of society...

[jc_ie]

I agree with your sentiments - we should have a proper health service but I still maintain we can't afford it(not the way we do things) and have become so corrupt and incompetent over the years it is beyond our ken to run a whelk stand, never mind a country.
Even if we weren't so broke, the money would be hijacked by the government to bail out their cronies. The sick, young and plain gullible will always get a raw deal here.

The medical cards were doled out as a vote grabber. Nobody cared less about the elderly. Just their votes. Fantastic way to run a country.

Point accepted about the way "we" do things.

However things can change. And if the UK managed the NHS system in 1948, 3 years after WW2 then our situation does look that bad.

[Odyessus]

Whilst there is absolutely no doubt that the government made a balls of the budget - particularly the medical card, and income levy issues - I can't help but feel that there is (at least) an element of make believe about some of the protests and the outrage.

For example the commonly roared "Fianna Fail don't care about the elderly" and variations of that theme. Well - does that really stand up to scrutiny? Remembering my very first sentence please !!

If we look at what Fianna Fail delivered to the "elderly" (probably not very PC a phrase but I'm probably not very PC) over the years -

What was the old age pension in 1997? What was the tax rate in 1997? What was the threshold for paying tax in 1997? Given the view that old people and lower paid seem to be hand in hand at the moment (in the context of this debate) can we really say that Fianna Fail haven't put the lower paid to the forefront in repeated budgets? Did CORI not commend a number of budgets for doing just that?

My point is simply this - are we really saying that Fianna Fails making an ass of this budget and their removing the automatic gold card equates to the reversal of every positive that they have previously done for the less well off elderly?

Why did the media not encourage the elderly of Ireland to protest at every FG and Lab office up and down the country when both parties opposed the extension of the medical cards in the first place and voted against every budget in the last 10/20 years that increased older peoples incomes?

Is this real or media inspired fakery built around the media needing to make a story - given that advertising revenues are and will continue to tank.

The argument is made that the principle is at stake here - universality. But is that really the principle that we should be fighting for? A principle that at it's heart sees the very wealthy get benefits they don't actually need? A principle (when coupled with sh1te negotiating) ends up with the real cash beneficiaries being the GPs - who by the way argued vociferously against the scheme when it was first announced. Does Lab and FG really believe that a universal gold card system as constituted pre-budget is fair? is equitable? is appropriate? Maybe they do but I find it hard to believe they aren't faking a bit.

And what about the wider issues - now that the medical card and income levy have been rowed back on (well partially at least) there seems to be a list forming of all the other cutbacks that need to be reversed. Do people genuinely believe we can operate without these cutbacks or are they simply applying the squeaky wheel approach? Do people grasp the concept of our needing to cut back and that cut backs mean people don't have as much money to spend. Whilst it is undoubtedly human nature for the people asked to cut back to resist - why is it that the broader media/opposition/society tends to abstain from the debate or attack the cutbacks. Do we really honestly believe that the country can operate without any of the cutbacks? What's the alternative? And please don't say "reform the public service" because that is meaningless - what's the actual real alternative.

I'm rambling a bit I know - but I really don't get this push by media and opposition to just say no? That's not an option. Honesty requires those in positions of responsibilty to point that out. OK the opposition will oppose but the media shouldn't follow suit blindly - or is that what we want now? Do we really believe that the government is always wrong when they announce cutbacks (remember my first sentence please !!). I recall checking on various websites (and before that on the newspaper) every budget to see what extra money I was getting - because I was ALWAYS winning in EVERY budget. All of a sudden we have one budget (yes there will be more) where I am worse off and immediately all rattles go flying out of the pram. I'm appalled. I'm outraged. This is most callous and mean spirited attack ever. I will not stand for this. etc etc.

Is this real? I'm thinking maybe some is but a large amount of it is fake.

Eaten bread is soon forgotten. Give people cake for dessert and then try to take it back and see how much they remember the bread.