British Army bosses do it in style !

[jerryp]

From Telegraph.co.uk: news, business, sport, the Daily Telegraph newspaper, Sunday Telegraph - Telegraph :

Armed forces bosses spend £230 million on hotels and dining
Armed forces bosses spent £230 million on hotels and dining - 13 times more than was spent on upgrading dilapidated living quarters for soldiers.

[Aindriu]

I wouldn't have expected anything less from an army that is still riddled by the class system and continues to think that officers are far better than 'other ranks' as they quaintly refer to non commissioned officers and private soldiers.

[Conor the Bold]

I wouldn't have expected anything less from an army that is still riddled by the class system and continues to think that officers are far better than 'other ranks' as they quaintly refer to non commissioned officers and private soldiers.

As it might not be politically correct to say but...

Firstly, Other ranks do include 3 types of ranks. The private soldier, the Non Commission Officers and the Warrant Officers - plus the other minutae which they'll often be. There does only happen to be one kind of commissioned officer. I can't think of a single army which will not refer to commission officers and 'other ranks' (in all but name).

Secondly, Officers will tend to be 'better' or even 'far' better than private soldiers and this is reflected in pay scales, responsibility, hardship and privileges.

To be an Officer you need to be able to have the ability to achieve a degree. You need to pass AOSB (or equivilant) then do 1 year of officer training, then onto the required training specific to the arm which is being joined. Then in effect, after that 2 (in effect) year process has been completed - an officer will be on probation and under the close supervision of a senior NCO.

On a general level - the requirements to be an officer are far in excess to that of 'just' a private Soldier. An Officer entrant (at AOSB stage) is expected to be as fit as a typical Soldier who has just left basic training.

Incidently - where are the requirements to be of a certain bloodline, from a certain school, to have a certain amount of income on the MoD website?

Because I can't find anything of the sort. if you're the right sort, you're the right sort. Yes you are going to meet Farquar and Tarquin on numerous occasions, but any more than in the Healthcare, the City, Architects? Engineering? Yes some regiments might be more old school tie than others due to the make up of the regiment, but you pays your money and you takes your choice as it were.

I would like to see an actual breakdown of these expensives, what they include, what they don't include and a comparison between MP's, and funnily enough Plc's in general. Whilst the accomodation situation is appalling - its a bit knee jerk to try an address that, by pointing at another budget item - when the major point is that Britian's defence budget simply isn't large enough for the commitments it takes on.

[Conor the Bold]

Interestingly - the Irish Army also refer to Commissioned and Other Ranks.

What was your point again regarding this 'quaint' term?

[Aindriu]

Interestingly - the Irish Army also refer to Commissioned and Other Ranks.

What was your point again regarding this 'quaint' term?

What is wrong with commissioned and non-commissioned? Warrant Officers (of which there are two bands, class 1 & class 2) hold the Queen's warrant - hence their title. Incidentally, Officer selection for the British Army takes place at Westbury in Wiltshire and is called the 'Regular Commissions Board'. The board consists of several syndicates. Each syndicate is headed by a Brigadier who is assisted by a Major. It is very uncommon for either officer to have been educated other than in public (i.e fee paying) school. Those candidates wishing to be commissioned into the Household Division (Blues and Royals and Life Guards) of the Guards Division (foot guards) HAVE to be sponsored by the relevant division. That prevents commissions in the said regiments being open to anyone. Furthermore, one does NOT have to be capable of passing or even hold a degree. The minimum requirement is 5 GCSE passes at grade C or above - a lot less than a degree!

On another point, in the British Army a newly commissioned officer is most certainly NOT under the supervision of a SNCO! He holds commands of the platoon and can (and they often do) tell the SNCO to not tell him what to do. Furthermore, all officer cadets at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst are addressed from day one by the SNCO instructors as 'Sir'. They are also given single rooms. The US Marines and Navy certainly do not do this. Prior to passing the course and receiving their commissions, officer cadets are referred to by surname only and live in dormitories.

[Conor the Bold]

What is wrong with commissioned and non-commissioned? Warrant Officers (of which there are two bands, class 1 & class 2) hold the Queen's warrant - hence their title.

Thank you for being condescending...

Without wishing to go into unnecessary detail - like I said before - Other Ranks include Warrants, Non-Commission Officers & Private Soldiers, along with all the other minutae of ranks which make up 'Other Ranks'.

It is a method of differentiating between those who are a commission officer and those who are not and pretty much every Armed forces uses this distinction, even down to 'Other Ranks'. The only other English differentation is Officers and Enlisted (Which means exactly the same thing) in the US Armed Forces.

So what's your Problem with it?

Incidentally, Officer selection for the British Army takes place at Westbury in Wiltshire and is called the 'Regular Commissions Board'.

Incidentelly - you're out of date.

Its the Army Officer Selection Board which consists of Briefing and then Main Board (TA Officiers entrants have to go to Main Board too).

The board consists of several syndicates. Each syndicate is headed by a Brigadier who is assisted by a Major. It is very uncommon for either officer to have been educated other than in public (i.e fee paying) school.

I didn't think that Public School actually represents part of the class system. I went to a Public school for part of my life. Am I part of the class system?

Those candidates wishing to be commissioned into the Household Division (Blues and Royals and Life Guards) of the Guards Division (foot guards) HAVE to be sponsored by the relevant division.

Actually for Main Board - no you don't. You are required to be 'sponsored' before Main Board - but this can be done by the the Careers officer, as well as a Corps or Regiment.. You don't select your regiment or they don't select you rather, until you are part way through Sandhurst IIRC.

Incidentally, whilst these are again 'Old School Tie' don't confuse this with being barred entry. Simple advice that you would might not fit into such a regiment - is just that. Advice.

That prevents commissions in the said regiments being open to anyone.

Commissions in any regiment are not open to anyone - full stop. Neither are they closed to somebody simply because they did not go to a famous Public School.

Furthermore, one does NOT have to be capable of passing or even hold a degree. The minimum requirement is 5 GCSE passes at grade C or above - a lot less than a degree!

Firstly that was the level of qualification required for a Gap year commission and I think a short service commission.

Secondly thats not what I said. This is what I said.

To be an Officer you need to be able to have the ability to achieve a degree.

Notice that? The ability to achieve a degree.

On another point, in the British Army a newly commissioned officer is most certainly NOT under the supervision of a SNCO!

If that's what you think - that's what you think. Lets break that down. You think the British Army allows a 20 year old 2nd Lt, with no actual exprience to speak of, to command an infantry platoon (for example) of more than 30 men - many who have been doing their job for upwards of ten years -with little of the way of supervision into Harms way?

I think the aforementioned SNCO, with upwards of 12 years exprience in Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq & Afghanistan will be largely responsible for allowing that Officer to grow into the leader of men that he will have to be in the coming years by supervising his actions (along with the RSM or CSM) and hopefully guiding him down the right paths of best practice etc. Its not as if the SNCO is the 2IC of the Platoon should the new Officer become incapacitated and has, at various times and various extents been doing the jobs of the Platoon Commander for several years.

He holds commands of the platoon and can (and they often do) tell the SNCO to not tell him what to do.

I see - subtle difference. And nothing to do with new officers being informed by the RSM of what is required of people in such positions - i.e. Listen and Learn. Don't try to misrepresent what I've said - an Officer will be 'in command' of their detachment. However don't kid yourself that new officers won't and indeed aren't expected to rely heavily on their SNCO's during this period.

Call it what you will - but I call it supervision, because that's exactly what it is.

Furthermore, all officer cadets at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst are addressed from day one by the SNCO instructors as 'Sir'.

Yes they are. What is your point?

Further to this, All officier cadets through out the world are doubtless told this one thing by Warrant Officers.

"I call you sir, You call me Sir. The difference is, You mean it and I don't".

Lets not try and confuse the issue further with pointless references to things that don't really mean anything.

They are also given single rooms. The US Marines and Navy certainly do not do this. Prior to passing the course and receiving their commissions, officer cadets are referred to by surname only and live in dormitories.

And? The United States Navy and Marines happen to be their services, with their own beliefs and traditions. How this exactly points to a 'Class system' I don't know.

You failed to address the following points incidently.

"Interestingly - the Irish Army also refer to Commissioned and Other Ranks."

"Incidently - where are the requirements to be of a certain bloodline, from a certain school, to have a certain amount of income on the MoD website?"

"Because I can't find anything of the sort. if you're the right sort, you're the right sort. Yes you are going to meet Farquar and Tarquin on numerous occasions, but any more than in the Healthcare, the City, Architects? Engineering? Yes some regiments might be more old school tie than others due to the make up of the regiment, but you pays your money and you takes your choice as it were."

Well? If your basis for

I wouldn't have expected anything less from an army that is still riddled by the class system and continues to think that officers are far better than 'other ranks' as they quaintly refer to non commissioned officers and private soldiers.

Is the fact that Officer Cadets are called Sir and Marm, the Other Ranks are called 'Other Ranks', and that some Regiments tend to have a higher quotient of Old school ties than not - the its a pretty bloody poor show then isn't it what?

Everything you've posted - hardly reflects a Army - riddled with the class system. Does it?

[Eduard Suess iv]

“Is the fact that Officer Cadets are called Sir and Marm, the Other Ranks are called 'Other Ranks', and that some Regiments tend to have a higher quotient of Old school ties than not - the its a pretty bloody poor show then isn't it what?”

pardon my ignorance of things military, but what on earth is a “Marm”?

[Big Bobo]

If you can speak with a posh accent, have a double barrelled name and attended Cambridge then you can be an officer in the British army.

[Eduard Suess iv]

If you can speak with a posh accent, have a double barrelled name and attended Cambridge then you can be an officer in the British army.

I wouldn’t know a lot about the officer bit, but the criteria you have just described is exactly what you would need to be a very successful spy.

[Catalpa]

it's a bit mixed really - anyone in theory can become a British officer no matter what their social background and some do.

But its pretty obvious that the middle and upper classes dominate the Officer Class.

Not saying they do a bad job because of it but the easy exercise of command and a willingness to lead are necessary attributes + maintaining a social certain distance from the ranks makes the task of getting orders carried out a bit easier.

Actually the highest NCO rank in the BA is the Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) who even officers treat with respect.