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About LinkBacksVery Interesting Site there - thanks for the Link!Originally Posted by Trampas
Very Interesting Site there - thanks for the Link!
Europa Conventus Delenda Est
The astonishing thing is that a major finding of the Amarach survey, that one-third of the population continue to consider Mass Immigration to be Not A Good Thing, is being airbrushed out of the commentary.
Given the unchallenged and unending propaganda from state, church, media, employers' organizations, pop singers etc. etc. to the effect that Mass Immigration is the greatest thing to ever hit Ireland, it is striking to see that a huge minority still resolutely say "No, this is wrong. Mass Immigration is on balance bad for our country."
This is an opinion that during over a decade of Mass Immigration has never been allowed free expression on the media. What would the figures be if that viewpoint had been given access to TV, radio or newspapers?
Those of us who oppose MI should take heart from the Amarach survey, and continue to demand that RTE, NewsTalk etc. stop stifling the free speech of one-third of the population.
after reading the article, i fail to see the relevance to my thread. i am referring to non nationals who either (a) do not have permission to work full time without employment but are legal and (b) people who do not have permission to be in this state period, or only for a stated purpose. that article you cite refers to non nationals who DO have an entitlement to resde in the state and to work, which such they are entitled to the SAME work rights and entitlements as us irish. there is employment case law, relating to irish employees that provides that the employer should ensure that their staff is fully trained and competent to carry out their duties, and in the event that they are not competent, it would be advisable that they at least make efforts to sent him / her to training, give him / her warnings etc before giving him/her the boot. failure to do so could lead to unfair dismissle or constructive dismissal. why shouls it be any different for non nationals? shouldn't they be entitled to the same diginity and respect from their employers?
why should employers escape from liability when it was they who clearly employed incompetent employees without properly checking their background. didn't they interview them or put them on temporary probation first if they have doubts over the person? if there were competent irish people available to do those jobs, then it serves the employer right to be fined etc for breaking equality rules etc ,which are clear in statute, instead of going for the cheap option of employing non naionals who may have being willing to work for less money. (would teh boom years have lasted as long as they did if wages were high, who knows)
cutting to the point, if it is not illegal, why do employers not ensure with absolute certainity that those who they intend to employee have the correct qualifications, language ability etc before employing? wouldn't it be better for the employer's business to ensure that they have staff, regardless of nationality, that can actually do the job, thus avoid potential disputes with customers etc.
on a lighter note, i wonder how would Manuelle from Fawlty Towers would have done?
the world and their mother knows that even the most sincere and level headed thinking person who would be 100% against mass immigration or some one who feels that the wrongs outweight the good in mass immigration would be lamblasted as racist, bigot etc. there may be fear of it giving the country a bad reputation, and we all know how proud/senstive ireland is about its reputation in the eyes of the world. if this reputation rose we as irish people would be branded as hypocritics. we would be reminded by other nations of the no black, dogs and irish mantra ( possibly by people who lived by the said mantra) there would be a fear that the media etc would create these people into people similar to enoch powell (misspelt, you know the british politican of the 1950's who made racist remarks about black people), in order to convince people to their thinking (all without them giving their solutions)
the issue may give certain people who may not be as sincere, an avenue to rant out racist remarks and incite hatred of racist colours etc.
you also remember that one has the right to stand in elections on these issues. look at the immigration control platform. they got coverage on prime time (maybe not as much as they like) but the internet is the new medium. i would not claim to know why they failed to when dail seats (and i know lots of people would certainly remind me that i dont know why) it is by belief that they did not claim seats is because people are more concerned with other issues. - if it does not effect me, i am alright jack. did anyone see that south park episode on immigration, you know the one with "they took our jobs". another reason might be that people found that groups like them where only an "one issue party".
sure fine gael promised that if elected it would create an office strictly for immigration purposes. this would have being a good idea, not just to ensure proper immigration control but possibly help to solve the major issues between the irish nationals and new comers. surely fianna fail thought this was a good idea, but what happens? nothing. what did fine gael do? nothing. the reality is, immigration is not just an irish issue but an eu one. look at all the recent caselaw dealign with the free movement of people - alot to do with non national members of eu families. our politicans are too afraid to touch this hot point themselves, never mind letting others do it. look at the arrogant faces brian lenihan and michael martin were making during the lisbon debate in the dail and any other speeches criticising them - as if it was how dare you to say that etc.
in my humble opinion, if there really is a huge problem with immigration in ireland, before one looks at the solutions one needs to look at the realities, they are
1. eu citizens have the right to reside in the state and work and rear their families. they are entitled to the same rights as us nationals. if they dont work they must show that they are finacially able to support themselves without need for state resources.
2. any person, (although with eu citizens it dont seem to happen) is allowed to come to the boarder of this state and apply for asylum. they are entitled to have their cases heard fairly and in an expedient manner and be treated with respect and ensure their human rights are complied with. if they are refused they can apply for humanitarian leave to remain. the problem here is that cases are not considered in a reasonable time limit, guidelines are not published as to how tribunals decide cases thus leaving inconsistant and possible errored judgements which will cause more delay when challenged in the high court. what happens during this time may make it difficult for a person, who has an unfounded case, to be deported if he changes circumstancessuch as marriage, or the fact that he may have lived here for more than 5 years causing him to have settled.
3. if there actually is a need for further nationals to fill vanancies in work forces with are low in supply of personnel, they can apply for work permits. the conditions as one can note on the departmet websites shows it is difficult to obtain them,
basically, how can one actually lawfully remove these people? should they be removed? if they are here legally why should they get blamed or hostility towards them. it is time that those who have no entitlement to be in the state to be removed by legal procedures.
I think most people in this country knows nothing than immigration, and the immigrations and protection bill 2008 is in our hand and we could see some of the breachies of immigration rule to be honest, why would we subject an immigrant to a sort of deportations debate just because they have appear infront of a judge in the country but under the equality before the law any citizen is prone to get involve with the law at some stage in life BUT the crucial part to be looked into is the gravity of the crime they've committed not a ''Desired'' crime orchestrated with race which is crystal clear sometimes. However nobody can subject immigrant to detentions of force just because they challeged us, let us not forget that these people fundamental human right must not be undermined, most of them goes to registered school aproved by the statewith first class lectures they recieved that is propelling most immigrant ability to challenge things in the state, however is like stamp 4 which is the greatest of all the resident permit in the state does not make people believed that they dont need to work, what stamp 4 does contains is just the right confers on them that they do not need the permission of the justice minister who he himself studied law anyway the right to work or set up inhouse business in the state.
So i believed that, the garda national immigration should start clamping down on illegal workers and illegal immigrants that are undermining our job market in the state.
oh yes, i note my earlier comment on stamp 4, what i meant to have said (damn my tpying is crap) was that it allows non nationals to reside here legally without requirement to seek permission to work (no need for work permit) or set up business (no need for business permit) (both of which are extremely difficult to obtain).I think most people in this country knows nothing than immigration, and the immigrations and protection bill 2008 is in our hand and we could see some of the breachies of immigration rule to be honest, why would we subject an immigrant to a sort of deportations debate just because they have appear infront of a judge in the country but under the equality before the law any citizen is prone to get involve with the law at some stage in life BUT the crucial part to be looked into is the gravity of the crime they've committed not a ''Desired'' crime orchestrated with race which is crystal clear sometimes. However nobody can subject immigrant to detentions of force just because they challeged us, let us not forget that these people fundamental human right must not be undermined, most of them goes to registered school aproved by the statewith first class lectures they recieved that is propelling most immigrant ability to challenge things in the state, however is like stamp 4 which is the greatest of all the resident permit in the state does not make people believed that they dont need to work, what stamp 4 does contains is just the right confers on them that they do not need the permission of the justice minister who he himself studied law anyway the right to work or set up inhouse business in the state.
So i believed that, the garda national immigration should start clamping down on illegal workers and illegal immigrants that are undermining our job market in the state.
as for the immigration bill - i do not see too much new things in it. ok they are in many provisions new rules in the sense that they are now expressed in statute eg long term residency, but one only needs to look at the inis.gov.ie website and see that many issues are already being dealt with on an "administrative basis" by the doj. it will be interesting to see if the rule on seeking permission from the doj to marry in the state would be upheld in a constitutional challenge. i see with regard to asylum and protection they want to create a body similar to the uk, that might be good for speeding things up, but one would be concerned that the doj have control of this new body - shouldn't it be independent, in the interest of fairness that it is left to an independent body?
as for the student issue, yes, many that come here an spend thousands on education in the recognised colleges, have every right to be here - sure if it was not for these fees, the universities and colleges would be savagely pressuring the dept for the return of tutition fees for nationals. fair enough, one can only obtain a student visa if they are offered a place which has being recognised by the government, but i believe some of these institutions should be reviewed. some of the degrees, certs, and diplomas in language and it etc, how many would be recognised by the employment sector in this state? are they worth while? (considering that a stamp 2 holder is expected to leave before making an application for work permit and then return to ireland - is there any point in some courses?) how many students are getting their visas revoked because they fail to met conditions of working over the limited hours, ownign business, failure to attend 80% of classes, how many are removed immeditely upon breach of conditions? how many leave when their time is expired? is 6 months visas for certain courses (excluding institutions such as the universities and i.t.) really justified? how many are actually repeating the course as an excuse to stay on?
i agree with the crime issue and am glad you note the immigrant's human rights etc. there is european human rights convention case law that in the past have severely restricted members states power to deport non eu's particularily if they have deep rooted connection with the state, be it family members or themselves (despite constant offences, some of serious nature) this is not just a matter for ireland but for all eu members states, something which needs to be dealt with at the council of ministers.
In law i think you got to go and read definitions of crime and the two types of crime before taken them as admissible however, some crimes may not be admissible in case an irish citizen organised the crime to circumvent immigrations right indirectly, which is arguably in the law court after the case is heard.oh yes, i note my earlier comment on stamp 4, what i meant to have said (damn my tpying is crap) was that it allows non nationals to reside here legally without requirement to seek permission to work (no need for work permit) or set up business (no need for business permit) (both of which are extremely difficult to obtain).I think most people in this country knows nothing than immigration, and the immigrations and protection bill 2008 is in our hand and we could see some of the breachies of immigration rule to be honest, why would we subject an immigrant to a sort of deportations debate just because they have appear infront of a judge in the country but under the equality before the law any citizen is prone to get involve with the law at some stage in life BUT the crucial part to be looked into is the gravity of the crime they've committed not a ''Desired'' crime orchestrated with race which is crystal clear sometimes. However nobody can subject immigrant to detentions of force just because they challeged us, let us not forget that these people fundamental human right must not be undermined, most of them goes to registered school aproved by the statewith first class lectures they recieved that is propelling most immigrant ability to challenge things in the state, however is like stamp 4 which is the greatest of all the resident permit in the state does not make people believed that they dont need to work, what stamp 4 does contains is just the right confers on them that they do not need the permission of the justice minister who he himself studied law anyway the right to work or set up inhouse business in the state.
So i believed that, the garda national immigration should start clamping down on illegal workers and illegal immigrants that are undermining our job market in the state.
as for the immigration bill - i do not see too much new things in it. ok they are in many provisions new rules in the sense that they are now expressed in statute eg long term residency, but one only needs to look at the inis.gov.ie website and see that many issues are already being dealt with on an "administrative basis" by the doj. it will be interesting to see if the rule on seeking permission from the doj to marry in the state would be upheld in a constitutional challenge. i see with regard to asylum and protection they want to create a body similar to the uk, that might be good for speeding things up, but one would be concerned that the doj have control of this new body - shouldn't it be independent, in the interest of fairness that it is left to an independent body?
as for the student issue, yes, many that come here an spend thousands on education in the recognised colleges, have every right to be here - sure if it was not for these fees, the universities and colleges would be savagely pressuring the dept for the return of tutition fees for nationals. fair enough, one can only obtain a student visa if they are offered a place which has being recognised by the government, but i believe some of these institutions should be reviewed. some of the degrees, certs, and diplomas in language and it etc, how many would be recognised by the employment sector in this state? are they worth while? (considering that a stamp 2 holder is expected to leave before making an application for work permit and then return to ireland - is there any point in some courses?) how many students are getting their visas revoked because they fail to met conditions of working over the limited hours, ownign business, failure to attend 80% of classes, how many are removed immeditely upon breach of conditions? how many leave when their time is expired? is 6 months visas for certain courses (excluding institutions such as the universities and i.t.) really justified? how many are actually repeating the course as an excuse to stay on?
i agree with the crime issue and am glad you note the immigrant's human rights etc. there is european human rights convention case law that in the past have severely restricted members states power to deport non eu's particularily if they have deep rooted connection with the state, be it family members or themselves (despite constant offences, some of serious nature) this is not just a matter for ireland but for all eu members states, something which needs to be dealt with at the council of ministers.
Furthermore, a student visa is a student and if they breached the rule they must leave the state and retrospectively a stamp 4 resident permit holder being a student can not be forced to repaet on politically multivated ground that lack substancial evidence physically and a stamp 4 established is not hard to obtain rather than power corrupt involve anyway.
I think it's one of the good one and most immigrant has reached the legal requirement of the word ''either one of the parents must be legally resident in the state three out of the four subsiquent following the whatever. :P
Last but not the least, the most important thing however is that, the state can tell immigrant to seek permission from the minister for justice equality and law reform to get married in the state contrary to the provisions of the marriage act 1884, the state has absolute right but to exclude asylum seekers from getting married in the state is indeed utra vire in nature and it can be challenge, and fundamentally i think the state has confers power on the minister if the bill is passed whicc is sufficent enough to regulate marriages in the state if that be the case.
Hubeas copus should be isued on any citizens that violate the marriage law.
maybe its the way you typed it but would you please care to clarify in understandable english was you are talking about, particularily paragraphs one (in light of ECJ cases such as Moustaquim, Berrehab etc - considereation bewteen the offences - would they justify deporation and his and his families rights under art 8 of echr) and two.In law i think you got to go and read definitions of crime and the two types of crime before taken them as admissible however, some crimes may not be admissible in case an irish citizen organised the crime to circumvent immigrations right indirectly, which is arguably in the law court after the case is heard.oh yes, i note my earlier comment on stamp 4, what i meant to have said (damn my tpying is crap) was that it allows non nationals to reside here legally without requirement to seek permission to work (no need for work permit) or set up business (no need for business permit) (both of which are extremely difficult to obtain).I think most people in this country knows nothing than immigration, and the immigrations and protection bill 2008 is in our hand and we could see some of the breachies of immigration rule to be honest, why would we subject an immigrant to a sort of deportations debate just because they have appear infront of a judge in the country but under the equality before the law any citizen is prone to get involve with the law at some stage in life BUT the crucial part to be looked into is the gravity of the crime they've committed not a ''Desired'' crime orchestrated with race which is crystal clear sometimes. However nobody can subject immigrant to detentions of force just because they challeged us, let us not forget that these people fundamental human right must not be undermined, most of them goes to registered school aproved by the statewith first class lectures they recieved that is propelling most immigrant ability to challenge things in the state, however is like stamp 4 which is the greatest of all the resident permit in the state does not make people believed that they dont need to work, what stamp 4 does contains is just the right confers on them that they do not need the permission of the justice minister who he himself studied law anyway the right to work or set up inhouse business in the state.
So i believed that, the garda national immigration should start clamping down on illegal workers and illegal immigrants that are undermining our job market in the state.
as for the immigration bill - i do not see too much new things in it. ok they are in many provisions new rules in the sense that they are now expressed in statute eg long term residency, but one only needs to look at the inis.gov.ie website and see that many issues are already being dealt with on an "administrative basis" by the doj. it will be interesting to see if the rule on seeking permission from the doj to marry in the state would be upheld in a constitutional challenge. i see with regard to asylum and protection they want to create a body similar to the uk, that might be good for speeding things up, but one would be concerned that the doj have control of this new body - shouldn't it be independent, in the interest of fairness that it is left to an independent body?
as for the student issue, yes, many that come here an spend thousands on education in the recognised colleges, have every right to be here - sure if it was not for these fees, the universities and colleges would be savagely pressuring the dept for the return of tutition fees for nationals. fair enough, one can only obtain a student visa if they are offered a place which has being recognised by the government, but i believe some of these institutions should be reviewed. some of the degrees, certs, and diplomas in language and it etc, how many would be recognised by the employment sector in this state? are they worth while? (considering that a stamp 2 holder is expected to leave before making an application for work permit and then return to ireland - is there any point in some courses?) how many students are getting their visas revoked because they fail to met conditions of working over the limited hours, ownign business, failure to attend 80% of classes, how many are removed immeditely upon breach of conditions? how many leave when their time is expired? is 6 months visas for certain courses (excluding institutions such as the universities and i.t.) really justified? how many are actually repeating the course as an excuse to stay on?
i agree with the crime issue and am glad you note the immigrant's human rights etc. there is european human rights convention case law that in the past have severely restricted members states power to deport non eu's particularily if they have deep rooted connection with the state, be it family members or themselves (despite constant offences, some of serious nature) this is not just a matter for ireland but for all eu members states, something which needs to be dealt with at the council of ministers.
Furthermore, a student visa is a student and if they breached the rule they must leave the state and retrospectively a stamp 4 resident permit holder being a student can not be forced to repaet on politically multivated ground that lack substancial evidence physically and a stamp 4 established is not hard to obtain rather than power corrupt involve anyway.
I think it's one of the good one and most immigrant has reached the legal requirement of the word ''either one of the parents must be legally resident in the state three out of the four subsiquent following the whatever. :P
Last but not the least, the most important thing however is that, the state can tell immigrant to seek permission from the minister for justice equality and law reform to get married in the state contrary to the provisions of the marriage act 1884, the state has absolute right but to exclude asylum seekers from getting married in the state is indeed utra vire in nature and it can be challenge, and fundamentally i think the state has confers power on the minister if the bill is passed whicc is sufficent enough to regulate marriages in the state if that be the case.
Hubeas copus should be isued on any citizens that violate the marriage law.
as for the minister's rule on marriage, i can be stand corrected but the reality is that as of NOW, the minister never seeks for permission. (assuming he already has the power) it is my impression that the minister will have the power to do it if the bill passes, i could be wrong of course
you referring to "habeas Corpus"?
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